realism in sound recording

  • Thread starter Audiophile Heretic
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
DynEQ is the Dynamic EQ feature of Audyssey room EQ on Denon and Marantz AVR/AVP. Similar to YAPO.

I don’t have Yamaha so can’t comment on their variable loudness control.
The variable loudness control is a good thing because it allows adjusting the loudness effect, rather than just having an On/Off switch. Since humans don't hear equally and the speakers in peoples' systems vary, I always thought that a variable control made a lot of sense because it's possible to get it 'right', rather than being wrong more often than not.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
How does DynEQ compare to the variable loudness control on current Yamaha integrated amplifiers A-S301, A-S501, A-S701, A-S801 and Yamaha stereo receivers back to the 1970s?

What is this Audyssey you speak of? Is this the Audyssey in Denon AVRs that is similar to YPAO Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer in Yamaha AVRs? Is DynEQ an abbreviation for Dynamic Equalization? Yamaha does not have anything like Dynamic Equalization in any of the models that I have owned.
Audyssey has been used in Denon and other AVRs for more than a decade but it's not as easy to personalize the loudness effect as it is with a variable control.

Yes, DynEQ is the name for what you wrote.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord

This is what DEQ looks like on paper. As the volume gets closer to -0 it’s effect is lessened and at -0mv it’s doing nothing at all. IIRC these were taken right from the preouts.
 
A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
I got that information from memory of the effing plastic head that JVC shipped with their binaural headphones to the stereo store where I worked. At the time, that's what they had, but I never wrote that advancements didn't occur and the pinna (outer ear) isn't the only thing that determines how we hear or how a binaural head could allow recording the sound.

Also, I had mentioned the Haas Effect in the post you responded to, here.

So far, nobody has created a recording system that can process sounds as well as the human brain.

Thanks for man-splaining, but I knew this from working in audio since before 1978. I have also taken college-level acoustics classes.
I have never seen that JVC plastic head. Why are JVC binaural headphones different than any other headphones? Were there microphones in the headphones? Not much like microphones in the silicone ears on a KEMAR mannequin.

I earned Consumer Audio Associate from the Institute of High Fidelity 1977. I took college courses in physics of sound reproduction. I earned degrees in Engineering Science and Electronic Technology. I didn't work in the same stereo store that you did.

What's wrong with research? I used to do research in college. Did you notice the date on the magazine reference I sent you? I read that magazine article when it was first published. Did you notice that was a professional sound engineering publication, not retail consumer audio? Silicone ears were used back then. I've read many more scholarly articles than that.

We localize sound by Interaural Time Difference (ITD), Interaural Level Difference (ILD, head shadow), Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF), and head motion. The size and shape of our heads and ears and the distance between our ears generate the spatial cues that our brains process. The brain processes nerve impulses. Sound is converted to nerve impulses by the ears. You make it sound like the ears are not important at all.

highfigh said:
nobody has created a recording system that can process sounds as well as the human brain
My point exactly! Stereo channel level and time differences created by orientation of directional microphones, or spacing of microphones, or mixing console level controls, rendered by spaced speakers, do not come close to replicating natural ITD, ILD, or HRTF that the brain uses. Natural ITD, ILD, and HRTF locate the speakers and limit the stereophonic spatial illusion. Binaural recording heard through headphones, while simulating ITD, ILD, and HRTF, has its limitations.

I have made recordings with near-coincident directional microphones approximating ear spacing. They could be breathtaking heard through headphones. ITD is a very important direction cue not captured by coincident microphones, panned monophonic microphones, or widely spaced microphones.

The Haas Effect is not a sound localization cue. Haas found that sound was localized by the first arriving sound (at both ears). Localization is not effected by a later (10 to 40 msec) arriving sound from another direction. Haas Effect is used in time delay ambiance extraction and surround sound for speaker playback.

Madsen, E. Roerbaek "Extraction of Ambiance Information from Ordinary Recordings" Journal of the Audio Engineering Society October 1970 Volume 18 Issue 5 pp 490-496

or

Mitchell, Peter W. "Time-Delay Systems" Stereo Review October 1978 Volume 41 Number 4 pp 87-92


You were the one who started sending links to Wikipedia articles. You should read the article in the link you sent and the articles in the links I sent you.
 
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A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
I got that information from memory of the effing plastic head that JVC shipped with their binaural headphones to the stereo store where I worked.
I have never seen that JVC plastic head. Why are JVC binaural headphones different than any other headphones? Were there microphones in the headphones? Not much like microphones in the silicone ears on a KEMAR mannequin.
Okay, I found a picture of JVC Binaural Headphone - Mic HM-200E. No, those don't replicate the flexibility, shape, or spacing of real ears. I know I can get more realistic ITD from my near-coincident cardioid microphone pair. JVC HM-200E don't look like quality headphones, either.
 
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A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern

This is what DEQ looks like on paper. As the volume gets closer to -0 it’s effect is lessened and at -0mv it’s doing nothing at all. IIRC these were taken right from the preouts.
Frequency based dynamic compression? Does the EQ change with the setting of the volume control or with the signal level? What does the abbreviation MV stand for?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
I have never seen that JVC plastic head. Why are JVC binaural headphones different than any other headphones? Were there microphones in the headphones? Not much like microphones in the silicone ears on a KEMAR mannequin.

I earned Consumer Audio Associate from the Institute of High Fidelity 1977. I took college courses in physics of sound reproduction. I earned degrees in Engineering Science and Electronic Technology. I didn't work in the same stereo store that you did.

What's wrong with research? I used to do research in college. Did you notice the date on the magazine reference I sent you? I read that magazine article when it was first published. Did you notice that was a professional sound engineering publication, not retail consumer audio? Silicone ears were used back then. I've read many more scholarly articles than that.

We localize sound by Interaural Time Difference (ITD), Interaural Level Difference (ILD, head shadow), Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF), and head motion. The size and shape of our heads and ears and the distance between our ears generate the spatial cues that our brains process. The brain processes nerve impulses. Sound is converted to nerve impulses by the ears. You make it sound like the ears are not important at all.



My point exactly! Stereo channel level and time differences created by orientation of directional microphones, or spacing of microphones, or mixing console level controls, rendered by spaced speakers, do not come close to replicating natural ITD, ILD, or HRTF that the brain uses. Natural ITD, ILD, and HRTF locate the speakers and limit the stereophonic spatial illusion. Binaural recording heard through headphones, while simulating ITD, ILD, and HRTF, has its limitations.

I have made recordings with near-coincident directional microphones approximating ear spacing. They could be breathtaking heard through headphones. ITD is a very important direction cue not captured by coincident microphones, panned monophonic microphones, or widely spaced microphones.

The Haas Effect is not a sound localization cue. Haas found that sound was localized by the first arriving sound (at both ears). Localization is not effected by a later (10 to 40 msec) arriving sound from another direction. Haas Effect is used in time delay ambiance extraction and surround sound for speaker playback.

Madsen, E. Roerbaek "Extraction of Ambiance Information from Ordinary Recordings" Journal of the Audio Engineering Society October 1970 Volume 18 Issue 5 pp 490-496

or

Mitchell, Peter W. "Time-Delay Systems" Stereo Review October 1978 Volume 41 Number 4 pp 87-92


You were the one who started sending links to Wikipedia articles. You should read the article in the link you sent and the articles in the links I sent you.
Hard to find people who were working with this stuff in the late-'70s.

To be honest, the JVC head came out before I started working at the stereo store in early '78 and it was a leftover after they stopped selling JVC- I didn't get a chance to do much with it because it was sold around the same time.

Care to reconcile "The Haas Effect is not a sound localization cue. Haas found that sound was localized by the first arriving sound (at both ears). Localization is not effected by a later (10 to 40 msec) arriving sound from another direction. Haas Effect is used in time delay ambiance extraction and surround sound for speaker playback."? Since it's also called the 'Haas Precedence Effect' and describes how the sound reaching one ear before the other causes the listener to perceive the location as coming from the direction of the first arrival, it would definitely be a sound localization cue even, as the links with a definition and description show.

We seem to have pretty similar experiences in what we studied and some of the things we did but I'm really not interested in arguing about this.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Frequency based dynamic compression? Does the EQ change with the setting of the volume control or with the signal level? What does the abbreviation MV stand for?
Basically an automatic loudness contour. It is offset by the master volume (mv). Humans don’t hear bass and treble at lower volumes as well as we do at higher levels. So at low volume, you can see a lot of rise bass, and a little in the treble. As the MV increases toward -0, the effect is lessened until at-0 there is no dynamicEQ being applied. But no, not dynamic compression. There is an affect used called dynamic volume. It basically is just a volume leveler. I personally don’t use either one.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Samurai
Always preferred studio over live. Realism was never really the goal for me beyond what imaginative connections were at play. I could still get the essence of the individual musicians, and the band collectively. Stereo is just another effect that uses music that I really find enjoyable.

It was not until I got older and started taking in live shows, that I found I was often disappointed to discover that the studio engineers had been doing the vocalists a huge forgiveness because they were off key, or just not so great live. Those that had close to their studio voice live, were the best of the best.

This before autotune. Now they can bring their studio crutches and plug-ins with them on stage, so all bets are off. I am aware that they have been able to synthetically repair music for a very long time now, but as long as it is not too obvious or that I know the performers are actually talented in their own right, it's ok. That crap where they are totally covering for the artists electronically just to push their image, they can shove where the sun doesn't shine. Like about everything that comes from the pop mill these days.
 
A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
Since it's also called the 'Haas Precedence Effect' and describes how the sound reaching one ear before the other causes the listener to perceive the location as coming from the direction of the first arrival, it would definitely be a sound localization cue even, as the links with a definition and description show.
No, the Haas or Precedence Effect does NOT describe "how the sound reaching one ear before the other causes the listener to perceive the location as coming from the direction of the first arrival".

The Haas or Precedence Effect is about two separate sounds, one sound that arrives at both ears directly from the source and a second sound that arrives at both ears from a different direction after a time delay, such as a reflection. The sound is localized by the brain as coming from the direction of the first arriving sound, the direct sound. The brain doesn't hear the second sound or reflection as a separate sound if it arrives from another direction and 10 to 40 milliseconds later, even if it is up to 10dB louder than (twice as loud as) the first sound. The second sound arriving more than 40 milliseconds later sounds like an echo. The second sound from the same direction as the first sound sounds like a comb filter or flange effect, changing the timbre of the first sound. The second sound from a different direction does make the first sound appear louder and larger, but doesn't change the direction.

Interaural Time Difference (ITD, Interaural means "between ears") is how the sound reaching one ear before the other causes the listener's brain to hear the direction to the sound source. The distance between the ears is about 23cm for a maximum time difference of about 660 microseconds (0.660 milliseconds) for a sound source direction azimuth ±90° from straight ahead, much shorter than 10 milliseconds (10,000 microseconds). The brain is very sensitive to very small ITD, less than 10 microseconds (0.010 milliseconds).

Did you not read any of the articles from Wikipedia, even the one you recommended to me?
 
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A

Audiophile Heretic

Audioholic Intern
I have spoken with people working in the design departments of several audio manufacturers- aside from google searches, do you have any 'from the horse's mouth' info?
I was studying audio periodicals long before the Internet was available to the public. I am new to Audioholics, but not new to audio.

Unfortunately, when I worked in AV retail the only people who came to see us were manufacturer's sales reps who knew a lot about persuasive sales and not much about physics, sound, electronics, or psychoacoustics.

One of my instructors at school consulted for a company that made high end mods to better quality consumer audio electronics. I got an A for my class project partially because I incorporated some of the same mods.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
I was studying audio periodicals long before the Internet was available to the public. I am new to Audioholics, but not new to audio.

Unfortunately, when I worked in AV retail the only people who came to see us were manufacturer's sales reps who knew a lot about persuasive sales and not much about physics, sound, electronics, or psychoacoustics.

One of my instructors at school consulted for a company that made high end mods to better quality consumer audio electronics. I got an A for my class project partially because I incorporated some of the same mods.
We had some reps who knew audio/electronics, but not many. OMG! The BS they used to spout! After complaining that ADS car stereo amplifiers didn't accept power cable very easily, the rep(tile) told me they were built to NASA spec.

What's the difference between a dead snake and a dead sales rep laying on the road?

The snake has skid marks near it.
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Audioholic Chief
Audiophiles who pursue a subjective "absolute sound of reality" are equivalent to medieval alchemists striving to transform lead into gold.
Clearly, said audiophiles never heard Auro-3D surround music recordings made with dual-quad microphones. In a dampened room with quality speakers, you are transported to the venue rather than listening to it in your room.

When I first heard the Himmelborgan and Himmelrand church recordings in Auro-3D, I felt like I was actually there. The roof was no longer 8 feet high. The walls were no longer six feet away. With my eyes closed, I found myself sitting in a large church.

Stereo cannot recreate venues, but Auro-3D can (Atmos can come close, but they don't tend to use the right microphones to achieve a "binaural in a room" type experience).
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Samurai
It seems to me that realism and accuracy aren't the same thing. It is one thing to record and mix a recording that is realistic but somewhat different from what would hear live. It may be better than what one would hear live. We are dealing with entertainment in the end so making something that is inaccurate but realistic may be the correct goal.

As an owner of an e-commerce web site I deal with product images all the time. Almost every one needs some photoshop work to improve visibility of the details of the products. It is inaccurate but helps the customer make a better informed decision. It is the right thing to do.

I appreciate recordings that provide the entertainment value of the music even if a mixing engineer had to tweak things a bit differently than what the performance sounded like.. There is nothing wrong with it.
 
lindsaykarny

lindsaykarny

Audiophyte
"The quote here by Degas, where he says 'Drawing is not what one sees, but what one must make others see', and in a way that's what we do in sound. The recording is not what one hears, but what one must make others hear.

"They were designed to not be a photograph, but to be an impression of what life was really about, so they actually would give more depth in their painting than a photograph could ever do, and, when I came to working as a producer, up to that time people had been making records as faithfully as they could, reproducing the original sound, and, what they were doing was making photographs, and I said, 'Well, you don't need to do that. Let's paint instead of having photographs.'"

- Sir George Martin
Sounds great:)

I work as a CPRW at Resume 2023
 

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