Re-clocking digital audio? Benefit or snakeoil???

[Davemcc]

I had a dealer mention to me yesterday that re-clocking digital audio signals provides a huge improvement in SQ. Apparently, there is a fellow around here modding very high end CD players (Moon, etc) with external clocks. Anybody ever hear of this? Is this a valid way of improving the digital processing of the audio signal?

 

[Johnd]

Dave, good morning.

Sure I've heard of it. This is nothing new. Guys were modding their 5910's 5 years ago (I was almost one of them) to the tune of 2k in mods (that's to a $3,500 player!).

A good mod can cost well in excess of $1k, and will upgrade the clock, filters, diodes, etc., etc., etc.

If I heard a huge (or, at least appreciable) difference firsthand...I may bite...if I were wanting. My 2900 outputs impeccable sound (in stereo and multi) to my 'digms (Studio 100's and servo) to my ears in my soundroom...and that's all that matters to me (for that setup). I'm not wanting (at least not at that price). Cheers, John

 

[Davemcc]

Good morning, John.

So you are saying that you haven't heard an appreciable difference from modding the digital signal? I've heard of people modding their players, but never looked into the specifics of what that entails or exactly what benefits might be derived.

 

[Johnd]

Good morning, John.

So you are saying that you haven't heard an appreciable difference from modding the digital signal? I've heard of people modding their players, but never looked into the specifics of what that entails or exactly what benefits might be derived.

Yes. I haven't heard an appreciable difference...not because it's not there, but because of lack of want (and cash ), and small return (dollar for performance...obviously totally subjective). I mean, if someone is going to spend $6k on a moon player, and $3k in mods to it, I can't imagine it's all that useful unless they have at least $16k speakers (the Wilkins ) or better. You have touched on the uber expensive (if one spends $10k on their cd player, their system...whatever that is comprised of...must approach $100k...unless it's just stereo, and even then, I'd submit to keep it balanced (speakers, cabling, connections, player, amp (tube?...where's hifi? ), pre, tt, one would certainly be above $50k)...just not my realm. I'm more mid class (some would call it higher end...others lower end...no matter, I am really happy with my system as it now stands...just have yet to connect my B&O tt).

I guess what I'm saying is if someone was going to spend $6k on a moon, I can't imagine they'd blink at modding it. The $2k mods I was referring to on the 5910 was for both audio and visual...that's more in my range...or was, as my A35 outdoes it visually, and my 2900 appraoches it aurally (certainly via sacd). I was in a similar boat (actually a couple of steps down) when considering the purchase of a 5910, and modding it (to the tune of about $6k). I understand that "the quest" is for audio (and/or) video perfection, and I know that you know all but a few of us have monetary parameters. Were I to have purchased the 5910, I would have modded it. I am, however, ensconced in HD glory on a large glass bead screen w/ my A35, and audio glory (stereo or multi) w/ my 2900. Am I happy I didn't buy the 5910? I would say I'm happy (mmm...ecstatic, at times) with my purchases at a fraction of the cost (better video, almost matched audio)...and I am not wanting.

I believe the performance is appreciable, but only the end user can decide if it is worthy given the cost (but then, I know you already know that). Also Dave, I know of no one here that has the Moon. Must be nice. $10k for a cd player, $20k or $30k on speakers...you're my new best friend.

 

[Davemcc]

Moon CD player, I wish. I can get one here locally for $2K, but even that's too rich for my blue collar budget. Someday, I would like the chance to personally A/B a high end player against my budget Cambridge universal DVD player, just for kicks and giggles. On the other hand, I've listened to only one set of $20K speakers and I don't think I would get them at anywhere near that price, even if I had the money.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I'm not wanting (at least not at that price). Cheers, John

I will tell them, for you, the cost is about $5X Will that get you interested?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I had a dealer mention to me yesterday that re-clocking digital audio signals provides a huge improvement in SQ. Apparently, there is a fellow around here modding very high end CD players (Moon, etc) with external clocks. Anybody ever hear of this? Is this a valid way of improving the digital processing of the audio signal?

Ask them how so? And why cannot those companies that charge a fortune for the players have the appropriate clocks and designs in them to begin with?

Do they have a before and after spec sheet? Something must be changing to audibly affect the sound on the improvement side. that must be measurable.
But, I suspect they just cater to the gullible crowd.

 

[Johnd]

Ask them how so? And why cannot those companies that charge a fortune for the players have the appropriate clocks and designs in them to begin with?

Hmmm. So are you suggesting a manufacturer can install any component, whether it be clocks, diodes, filters, etc. at any pricepoint? Do you concede that these different components have different prices for the manufacturer, given their supply and demand, and r&d that goes into each individual component (in other words, these components all have their own individual costs)?

I submit if you've answered the former in the negative, or the latter in the affirmative, you've already answered your own question mtry. There are an almost infinite number of permutations of different players that could exist given the plethora of componentry. And I think, in the endless quest for audio nirvana (the manufacturer's, and ours), there is a material cost, a labor cost, a marketing cost, overhead, and an r&d cost associated with each component built.

 

[3db]

Ask them how so? And why cannot those companies that charge a fortune for the players have the appropriate clocks and designs in them to begin with?

Do they have a before and after spec sheet? Something must be changing to audibly affect the sound on the improvement side. that must be measurable.
But, I suspect they just cater to the gullible crowd.

I think its snake oil as well and a ploy to pull more coin out of the unsuspecting buyer's pockets. Moon makes some very nice sounding and looking audio equipement. They have their reasons to the components they picked for the design.

 

[Davemcc]

So we can call "snake oil" on this subject?

 

[Johnd]

So we can call "snake oil" on this subject?

Hah! Good morning Dave.

In my humble opinion there will always be someone calling something snake oil. ALWAYS. I'm not so interested in that.

Perhaps one could look at this another way: if there is no benefit to different clocks, filters, diodes, etc., why do they vary from one player to another? Why do certain high end players often use more obscure componentry? Just to fool us? I think not.

I'll have to admit, the differences in audio and visual quality are becoming less and less with each new generation of player. I mean we can now get high def players (or upconverters) for $100. We can get high quality sacd players for about that (or not much more). Yeah, I know it's niche, and some say it's dead, but those are the people that don't own one, and generally haven't even heard sacd playback, let alone properly setup on a quality system. But I digress.

If there is no appreciable difference, why do they install different componentry in players in the first place? Of course there's a difference. The question to ask (if I can be so bold), is the difference appreciable, and is the cost/benefit ratio worth it...especially nowadays with high quality equipment being so affordable? Not everybody is a scammer, and not all upgrades (or higher end equipment) is snake oil. Is the difference appreciable, and is it worth it?

 

[Davemcc]

Mornin' John.
I guess I'll have to leave a big question mark on the issue until I can get hold of a high end player to listen to and compare against my Cambridge player to see if it's worthwhile. But I seriously doubt I will ever get hold of a modded high end player to A/B the mods we're discussing. I guess I'll just have to accept shades of grey, rather than black and white for an answer.

 

[Johnd]

Mornin' John.
I guess I'll have to leave a big question mark on the issue until I can get hold of a high end player to listen to and compare against my Cambridge player to see if it's worthwhile. But I seriously doubt I will ever get hold of a modded high end player to A/B the mods we're discussing. I guess I'll just have to accept shades of grey, rather than black and white for an answer.

You and me alike.

While there are professional reviews available for high end players, there are scant, if any professional (by reputable and experienced reviewers) reviews of modified high end players. There's not even many professional reviews for low end or mid class modified players. I take solace in the fact that I have seen firsthand audio (and visual) quality skyrocket over the past 25-30 years. That's not to say great sound couldn't come from a B&O tt or a Sony ElCassette, but we are now in a different era...and what cost thousands then can be reduplicated (or bettered) now for a fraction of the cost. And that's a fact (I still have My B&O and my ElCassette).

 

[Pyrrho]

I had a dealer mention to me yesterday that re-clocking digital audio signals provides a huge improvement in SQ. Apparently, there is a fellow around here modding very high end CD players (Moon, etc) with external clocks. Anybody ever hear of this? Is this a valid way of improving the digital processing of the audio signal?

Think about it logically. Are the people doing the mods saying that makers of very expensive CD players do not know what they are doing? Why is it that they imagine that they can improve the sound of ANY CD player, regardless of how expensive it is? Do they know something that NO CD manufacturer knows? Come on, it is pure BS, plain and simple.

Now, it is entirely possible that the mods do audibly alter the sound. But that does not mean that it is actually accurately reproducing what is on the disc. Anyone can alter the frequency response or some other characteristic to make it less like what is on the CDs, and some might think this is "better". They might, for example, boost the bass or whatever, and some might like this. But using a tone control would achieve the same result, be much cheaper, and one would be able to defeat the alteration if one wished.

And, of course, if no one does a properly level-matched, double-blind listening test, it might be that one imagines a difference that isn't there.

Additionally, as mtrycrafts says, if there really is a difference, it could be measured in some way. Why do they avoid providing these measurements so that you know what you are getting? Hmmm.... could be because they are con artists wanting to part the unsuspecting from their money.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hmmm. So are you suggesting a manufacturer can install any component, whether it be clocks, diodes, filters, etc. at any pricepoint? Do you concede that these different components have different prices for the manufacturer, given their supply and demand, and r&d that goes into each individual component (in other words, these components all have their own individual costs)?

I submit if you've answered the former in the negative, or the latter in the affirmative, you've already answered your own question mtry. There are an almost infinite number of permutations of different players that could exist given the plethora of componentry. And I think, in the endless quest for audio nirvana (the manufacturer's, and ours), there is a material cost, a labor cost, a marketing cost, overhead, and an r&d cost associated with each component built.

If the maker is selling a high end CD player that still is wanting for something, then, they are not worthy of being a high end company. but just another company that sells at a high price.

 

[Johnd]

If the maker is selling a high end CD player that still is wanting for something, then, they are not worthy of being a high end company. but just another company that sells at a high price.

The maker cannot control what the seller desires. Other than in Huxley's A Brave New World.

The maker may manufacture a very quality component, at any price. That is not to say it cannot be bettered.

 

[Pyrrho]

The maker cannot control what the seller desires. Other than in Huxley's A Brave New World.

The maker may manufacture a very quality component, at any price. That is not to say it cannot be bettered.

Do you mean that the manufacturer cannot know what alterations to the signal that the seller (don't you mean buyer?) wants?

 

[Johnd]

Do you mean that the manufacturer cannot know what alterations to the signal that the seller (don't you mean buyer?) wants?

Yes, Pyrrho. Thank you. You see, it's Friday night and I've had a copule of...oh, nevermind mind.

"...manufacturer cannot know...buyer..."

Thanks again.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... That is not to say it cannot be bettered.

By placing a better clock that cannot be differentiated from what they already use? If so, how is that better other than just a better specked clock.

 

[sparky77]

IMHO reclocking the converter is like upsampling a cd player, theoretically it'll sound better, but 98% of average unmutated humans will not hear the difference.