I have to agree. I bought (2) SX-10/R subs and (4) 441-SE's in black. The 441's came with reference bass drivers. Got a really good deal, I think. I matched these with my T2 and T1 fronts along with (4) SI-615's for Atmos for my new theater. Almost wish I did not have the T2/T1 setup so I could get a great deal on the newer models. Only problem is not being able to get any SE-1010's these days.