Question on wired connection iphone to achieve Hi-Res through specific DAC.

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Example: Alan Parsons I Robot in 192/24. What you thought was just a Synth in the beginning you can hear WORDS in that Synth. "Pick Myself up off the ground" "I'll go have another beer" Truly new and not legible to that extent from 44.1. It's not magic. It's detail. Hi-Res.
At what elapsed time do these words appear?
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
At what elapsed time do these words appear?
The main repeating synth starts at the 1:40 mark at a low level then gets louder and by the time you are at 2:40 you have heard it several times. Of note, the HD track I have shows this at 9216 kbps.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
Parsons has said "Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment.". He also said that the room's acoustics are more important than audiophile gear.

That said, my question for Parsons- "What was the point in making the effort to achieve the mix for the recordings you're known for of it isn't sound quality?" Crap equipment can never sound as good, but I can say from personal experience in audio sales that a huge number of listeners of Dark Side of The Moon and Alan Parsons Project recordings used bad equipment.

Also, what is the high frequency limit of YOUR hearing? If you have worked/lived in high SPL environments and didn't use hearing protection, you're probably fooling yourself into believing that what you hear is real. The recording community and industry use many tricks to create illusions in sound. Marketing does the rest.

WRT your "I would feel sorry for those who will never hear these wonderful Hi-Res songs the way the musician / engineer created them", you need to realize that most pop/rock musicians blew out their ears a long time ago, so any comments about hearing fine details and high frequencies are BS. They hear what they can, but most recordings are mixed and mastered by people who know how to achieve 'their sound' because they have done it for so long.

Also, recordings can't sound the way they heard it in the control room because the acoustics and equipment are very different. Unless you have exactly teh same equipment, room, environmental conditions, etc, you will never hear anything created in a studio as they heard it.

Read interviews with mastering engineers- they usually comment on their hearing damage. Anyone who has spent much time near drums and especially cymbals without hearing protection is lying if they say their hearing is good and it's total BS if they say their hearing is perfect. NOBODY who's past childhood has perfect hearing- the sounds we're exposed to throughout our lives makes that impossible.

I am familiar with that interview. I've got the bonus features/interviews on all of his blu-rays. He was also upset at audiophiles that were asking him stupid questions. He did not do things for the reasons he felt audiophiles were doing things. He was and is Genius to me. He didn't like questions. He didn't even play live in like forever it seems. Just a private guy. I used to play in front of Marshal amp stacks back in the early 90's as the guitarist put them right behind my synthesizers. I do not need to listen to music loud in my Focal Stellia headphones to hear extensive details. I appreciate your opinions. I completely recognize the mind can play tricks and you might hear things that aren't there. I hear those words intentionally placed there. He is an engineer! One of the greatest ever. He did it with engineering. If someone wants to say they don't hear it, fine. I do not really care. I work from home and listen to music most of the day when I work. On the weekends I enjoy music even more with playing vinyl. I know I have some high frequency loss as I cannot hear when the thermometer beeps. But I have trained my years since my youth to pick up different sounds and differentiate instruments. It is my passion. I realize probably nobody has ever mentioned this about I Robot before. If you hear it, you hear it. The words also make sense with the album. He did it again several times, almost every song with the "A Valid Path" CD in a way that was quite hilarious. Tijuaniac 48 second mark "I want your head" and the song Chomolungma has some words during this which are funny "let me taste your..." and ends with John Cleese! Also the song Return to Tunguska which has a lot. Just fun stuff. Overall I don't have perfect hearing. I love listening!!! I have friends that just hear songs. I love the details and know I am an Audioholic at heart. I sincerely hope that other's will hear the words now that I've pointed them out and know that yes it's in their mind because Alan wanted to put it there! I did not hear it until I got the Hi-Res 9216 kbps track.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
This chap has no clue. He seems to think that the CD uses a compressed algorithm. It absolutely does not. This guy is a bit waster as well as a time waster.
To you and the other's who appear to be defending you.. You are all full of bit. You KNOW that Hi-Res exists and that the bit rates can be as high as 9216 kbps. So why are you doing this to me? Is somebody putting you up to this or are you just upset that I helped someone and you didn't get the chance to put them down or talk down to them with super bit strength? Totally weird and not acceptable. Perhaps we are talking about different things. You are talking scientific resolution and I'm talking about Hi-Res music formats. I don't get it? If it's what your saying, I guess I don't want it. You guys should really learn some ETHICS about helping people. Not shutting people down and out but teaching. Educating.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
And 9316 kbps shows yo mamma.
9216. No Mammagamma! All these high tech expensive equipment guys and you waste your money. It takes an Apple I-tunes and High res files and a good DAC and good headphones. It is difficult to pick out with speakers until you know what to listen for. I have the Mofi Vinyl of "I Robot" and did not hear the words until I used my headphones and recent 9216 Hi Res version. I do have very good headphones though. I also hear it clearly with my IEM's Moondrop S8 with balanced cable (the original cable is junk in comparison).
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
If you are able to stream from the Apple Music service in hi-res 24/192 because Wi-Fi Streaming is set to Hi-Res Lossless and the Downloads setting is also set to Hi-Res Lossless , I would say the files themselves may not be hi-res or hi-res was not selected at the time of their download.
YES! I was having a problem with that. Listening to my phone through my living room Monolith headphone amp it didn't show me the hi-res on the display. Then I learned if the Music is already on your phone in a different format, it will not be replaced. So that was why it wasn't showing hi-res because it didn't over-write on my phone! I do get it through my computer so I know what I bought is good. I would recommend Peter Gabriel I/O. I also learned from that other chat other devices such as Mac Mini computer would be cheap way to get my hi-res files through my good living room system where I go to chill when I actually have time off.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
This chap has no clue. He seems to think that the CD uses a compressed algorithm. It absolutely does not. This guy is a bit waster as well as a time waster.
I wasn't taking about CD's. You did. If the band recorded at 41 then it's fine. But if it's re-mastered and cleaned up and put on 96 or 192 then it would not work on a CD. If it was Originally recorded at 96 it would be compressed to 41 on the CD. The only way you could hear it better is to get the digital hi-res copy or a special CD or blu-ray. Films use 48. I think you absolutely know all this and you are just talking about something else. I don't know why I'm even responding. You know what this is. I'm not talking about CD's or their capability. I was talking about the Hi-Res formats being offered. If you still think I'm ruining the internet, well.....I'm sorry, feel free to curse me when yours is slow.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
To you and the other's who appear to be defending you.. You are all full of bit. You KNOW that Hi-Res exists and that the bit rates can be as high as 9216 kbps. So why are you doing this to me? Is somebody putting you up to this or are you just upset that I helped someone and you didn't get the chance to put them down or talk down to them with super bit strength? Totally weird and not acceptable. Perhaps we are talking about different things. You are talking scientific resolution and I'm talking about Hi-Res music formats. I don't get it? If it's what your saying, I guess I don't want it. You guys should really learn some ETHICS about helping people. Not shutting people down and out but teaching. Educating.
We try and keep this forum as an evidence based forum based on good science and engineering. You have have been disgorging absolute nonsense and have no clue as to the basic engineering principles of digital audio. You talk about educating, but unfortunately that is not what you are doing. You are misleading, which is the opposite purpose of educating. I maintain I have been teaching, but as of this time you are proving to be ineducable.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
We try and keep this forum as an evidence based forum based on good science and engineering. You have have been disgorging absolute nonsense and have no clue as to the basic engineering principles of digital audio. You talk about educating, but unfortunately that is not what you are doing. You are misleading, which is the opposite purpose of educating. I maintain I have been teaching, but as of this time you are proving to be ineducable.
Thank you. Perhaps I have been accusatorial but it was defensive based on your offensive comments. Teach me or at least tell me what you are trying to say because you haven't yet that I have read. The facts about Hi-Res capabilities have been around and longstanding for many years. What exactly are you trying to disprove or prove so I can learn. I've been reading this forum a long time and I see way too much attacking by you guys rather than assisting many folks, noting many of you have helped me and I greatly appreciate it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you. Perhaps I have been accusatorial but it was defensive based on your offensive comments. Teach me or at least tell me what you are trying to say because you haven't yet that I have read. The facts about Hi-Res capabilities have been around and longstanding for many years. What exactly are you trying to disprove or prove so I can learn. I've been reading this forum a long time and I see way too much attacking by you guys rather than assisting many folks, noting many of you have helped me and I greatly appreciate it.
The point is that a 16 bit 44.1 stream gets you an FR from the lowest range of human hearing to the highest. So there is no point in achieving an FR higher than 20 KHz. And actually most people can not even hear that high at any point in their lives. However, setting 20 KHz is a reasonable place to set the upper limit of human hearing, so going above that is definitely pointless.

The next issue is dynamic range. In recording systems this amounts to the difference between the loudest part of the program without distortion and the softest parts not descending into the noise floor. When it comes to noise floor you have to consider not only the signal to noise ratio of recording and reproducing chain, but also the background of the listening environment.

In digital systems unlike analog, distortion becomes the bigger problem in the quiet signals and not the loud. Having said that if you do set the recording level too high, then you risk running out of bits, in which case distortion suddenly becomes catastrophic. So when making digital recordings, you have to keep a close eye on the bitmeter which will be part of the recording screen, like I have in my WaveLab screen.

Now the problem becomes with quiet signals in that eventually you get to a place where the system has to choose between 1 and 0, so the error rate becomes 100%.
This problem is overcome by adding white noise to the program. This process is known as dithering. It is vital to get this correct. The lower the bit rate, the more dither is required. So this is why the bit rate does determine the achievable dynamic range. However a 16 bit recording will give you a 96 db dynamic range at least. This is more than enough for most program, especially taking into account the noise level of even the quietest domestic environments. So that is why the CD was well chosen. It gives you an FR out to 20 KHz reliably and actually with a bit of reserve, and you get a 96 db dynamic range 44.1 16 bit. That gives you a better FR and dynamic range than analog recording or reproducing systems.

Now, if you had understood what you referred to as those boring videos, you would have seen why recording engineers do actually record at higher rate than CD spec. This is because they want reserve, and want to eliminate as far as possible running out of bits in a live session. However in the remastering for public consumption there is no loss in issuing the recording for public consumption at 16 bit 44.1 KHz or certainly no higher than 48 KHz. Doing so is truly a waste of resources and as I said wantonly clogs the Internet. The Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall stream in 16 bit 44.1 lossless FLAC streams. Lossless algorithms use streams that save bandwidth but can be fully restored on the receiving end. FLAC and AFLAC are the most ubiquitous. I think the BPO are the world leaders in the streaming of digital AV program. Their audio quality is astounding.

This is all explained in what you referred to as those boring videos. These were produced by some of the greatest experts on digital audio.

Now I have been into digital audio from the early years. I started making digital broadcasts on location for the local public radio station in 1984.
I was one of the first, if not the first to broadcast live broadcasts on location over the Internet. So I have experience with this for 40 years now.

Below is a picture of a first generation CD player that I repaired playing a 20 KHz signal. You can see the right and left channels on my scope. Both are perfect. This was my first CD player a Revox. You can see that the 20 KHz waves are perfect. It had a problem that I had to correct, and that is why it was on the bench. This player was 14 bit 44.1 like quite a few first generation players were. No analog recording system can match that.



This Hi-Res craze is on the same spectrum as speaker wire and power cables that cost the same as exotic jewelry. It is all absolute bunk the lot of it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm going to extend my remarks here, as this is an important topic about which there is more misunderstanding than understanding.

Central to this is that analog and digital compression are not remotely the same thing. First of all changing the bit rate is not even dynamic compression at all. It is a setting of the maximal output with reference to the noise floor. So it is a determinant of the SNR of the source.

Digital compression is something entirely different. It also uses psycho acoustics and not physics directly. It uses psychoacoustic algorithms to study what information you can leave out, and the listeners won't notice. At least discard enough that it won't stare you in the face. That is known as lossy compression, because it is discarding information and has nothing to do with dynamic range. Loss less compression like FLAC eliminates bits in the transmission and in the code, the stream is able to be restored to its original form at the receiving end. This does not save as much space as lossy compression, but it works very well.

So it is important to understand that digital compression has nothing to do with dynamic range. It does affect SNR, but it is more than adequate for any room other than a total quiet room. It should also be pointed out that noise is added at every point of the analog chain, from preamp to power amp, and whatever is in that "daisy chain, from recording to the speaker or headphones.

On the other hand analog compression is all about dynamic range compression. Totally. It is usually accomplished by gated compressors. It can be total or selective. Compressing the lower frequencies more than others is universally used to allow extended LP playing time. Total compression is used to keep the dynamic within the specification of the technology, magnetic tape and FM, LPs and tape machines immediately come to mind. Then we have analog dynamic "lossless compression like Dolby A, B, C. dbx 1 and 2. These compressions are reversible on playback, but the more severe ones like Dolby a and dbx1 require all equipment to be to the highest standard and maintained at peak performance or the side effects are horrendous with obvious "pumping."

Lastly we have unintentional dynamic range compression. This is a loudspeaker vice, and it is not measured, due to not wanting to blow speakers up under test.
What I am talking about is power dynamic compression due to the heating of loudspeaker voice coils at power. That heating rises with the square of the current. As the voice coil heats up its resistance increases and their is output loss. This actually happens to all speakers, and the louder you play it,the more severe it increases. There is a golden lining to this in a way, because the increase in resistance lowers the power and output. Of course if you heat it too much the VC fries.
As you know I tend to favor designs with multiple drivers, especially in my major systems. That is the reason why, as it spreads the heat load and increases the number of magnet systems to dissipate the heat. So in my mains two 10" bests one 15" in each bass line. It also has other advantages.

These points are important to understand for the proper design of systems and choice of program. It is also important as the purveyors of snake oil can exploit these common misunderstandings with abandon. They do, and extensively. They are more likely to confuse more people with that, than "funny wire" claims that are easier to debunk.

Lastly, I think it is long overdue to thank members for persistently fighting to keep these forums beacons of truth and supporting soundly based engineering. Many of you have done a lot of heavy lifting in debunking spurious money wasting myths and worse. It is hard to keep it as a beacon of truth and reliable information, in such seas of ludicrous nonsense.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
YES! I was having a problem with that. Listening to my phone through my living room Monolith headphone amp it didn't show me the hi-res on the display. Then I learned if the Music is already on your phone in a different format, it will not be replaced. So that was why it wasn't showing hi-res because it didn't over-write on my phone! I do get it through my computer so I know what I bought is good. I would recommend Peter Gabriel I/O. I also learned from that other chat other devices such as Mac Mini computer would be cheap way to get my hi-res files through my good living room system where I go to chill when I actually have time off.
I liked the I/O album and purchased the blu-ray disc for the Atmos/TrueHD version. My Mac mini M1 is my main two channel music player as it is connected via HDMI to my receiver and I use the TV as the monitor. It was the subject of an experiment, like so many of my devices, that mostly worked out.

Don’t get hung up on hi-res. Now, I get the same in, same out desire. Many hate different numbers going in and different numbers being displayed as going out. It drove me nuts on the Mac mini initially because the HDMI port was locked at 24/48 output no matter the incoming signal.

After a few years, MacOS Sonoma finally allowed for selection of the output rate and an app supporting Exclusive Mode for audio could send out the same bit/sample of signal as was received up to 24/192. Apple Music, though doing so on iOS, does not bit/sample match on MacOS or tvOS and tvOS is capped at 24/48. I just leave the Mac mini M1 at 8ch 24/192 output over HDMI and have moved on with my life.

If you want to play Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music on an equipped system, the Apple TV 4K is the only device that will do it over HDMI. While the Mac will display the Dolby symbol and claim Dolby Atmos ouput, it does not support Dolby Atmos over HDMI like the Apple TV 4K and is outputting a Dolby 5.1 signal as multichannel PCM.
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
Thanks, I love my Apple TV 4K. Haven't yet purchased the Mac Mini but I got tax refund and that might be what I do. Thanks for the advise about hi-res and Mac/apple product assist with understanding what they are doing with each device. Very helpful!
 
EthicalEar

EthicalEar

Junior Audioholic
The point is that a 16 bit 44.1 stream gets you an FR from the lowest range of human hearing to the highest. So there is no point in achieving an FR higher than 20 KHz. And actually most people can not even hear that high at any point in their lives. However, setting 20 KHz is a reasonable place to set the upper limit of human hearing, so going above that is definitely pointless.

The next issue is dynamic range. In recording systems this amounts to the difference between the loudest part of the program without distortion and the softest parts not descending into the noise floor. When it comes to noise floor you have to consider not only the signal to noise ratio of recording and reproducing chain, but also the background of the listening environment.

In digital systems unlike analog, distortion becomes the bigger problem in the quiet signals and not the loud. Having said that if you do set the recording level too high, then you risk running out of bits, in which case distortion suddenly becomes catastrophic. So when making digital recordings, you have to keep a close eye on the bitmeter which will be part of the recording screen, like I have in my WaveLab screen.

Now the problem becomes with quiet signals in that eventually you get to a place where the system has to choose between 1 and 0, so the error rate becomes 100%.
This problem is overcome by adding white noise to the program. This process is known as dithering. It is vital to get this correct. The lower the bit rate, the more dither is required. So this is why the bit rate does determine the achievable dynamic range. However a 16 bit recording will give you a 96 db dynamic range at least. This is more than enough for most program, especially taking into account the noise level of even the quietest domestic environments. So that is why the CD was well chosen. It gives you an FR out to 20 KHz reliably and actually with a bit of reserve, and you get a 96 db dynamic range 44.1 16 bit. That gives you a better FR and dynamic range than analog recording or reproducing systems.

Now, if you had understood what you referred to as those boring videos, you would have seen why recording engineers do actually record at higher rate than CD spec. This is because they want reserve, and want to eliminate as far as possible running out of bits in a live session. However in the remastering for public consumption there is no loss in issuing the recording for public consumption at 16 bit 44.1 KHz or certainly no higher than 48 KHz. Doing so is truly a waste of resources and as I said wantonly clogs the Internet. The Berlin Philharmonic Digital Concert Hall stream in 16 bit 44.1 lossless FLAC streams. Lossless algorithms use streams that save bandwidth but can be fully restored on the receiving end. FLAC and AFLAC are the most ubiquitous. I think the BPO are the world leaders in the streaming of digital AV program. Their audio quality is astounding.

This is all explained in what you referred to as those boring videos. These were produced by some of the greatest experts on digital audio.

Now I have been into digital audio from the early years. I started making digital broadcasts on location for the local public radio station in 1984.
I was one of the first, if not the first to broadcast live broadcasts on location over the Internet. So I have experience with this for 40 years now.

Below is a picture of a first generation CD player that I repaired playing a 20 KHz signal. You can see the right and left channels on my scope. Both are perfect. This was my first CD player a Revox. You can see that the 20 KHz waves are perfect. It had a problem that I had to correct, and that is why it was on the bench. This player was 14 bit 44.1 like quite a few first generation players were. No analog recording system can match that.



This Hi-Res craze is on the same spectrum as speaker wire and power cables that cost the same as exotic jewelry. It is all absolute bunk the lot of it.
I will have to look at this over the weekend. Some days I work from 8:30am to past midnight. Sometimes I work all weekend too. You have given me an excellent useful description of multiple interlaced puzzle pieces that I will need some processing time to completely understand. Thank you so much! I will reply again with any questions after I study this lesson. The last time I personally used an Oscilloscope was 1978-1980 and at that time I used it many times to make sure each instrument of a concert band was in tune. And then the band as a whole. My ears alone were not good enough to match the oscilloscope. Not even back then. Thanks again, will respond as soon as I get a chance.
 

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