Question about phase and minimum phase EQs

  • Thread starter Milton_Friedman
  • Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
Many speakers meant for recreational listening have boosted or cut responses. For instance, many

hifi speakers have scooped mids. My question is if the company tunes the speaker to scoop the

mids, will it have the same amount of phase distortion that taking a flat speaker and scooping the

mids with a minimum phase equalizer would cause?
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Many speakers meant for recreational listening have boosted or cut responses. For instance, many hifi speakers have scooped mids. My question is if the company tunes the speaker to scoop the mids, will it have the same amount of phase distortion that taking a flat speaker and scooping the mids with a minimum phase equalizer would cause?
This is a question that is impossible to answer. It depends on the cause of the frequency response aberrations.

I don't think these frequency response aberrations are deliberate as a rule. They are indications the designer or team really don't know what they are doing. But you are correct in that it is common for frequency response aberrations to be associated with other anomalies including phase anomalies.
 
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
The companies know what they are doing, companies give their speakers unflat frequency responses on purpose to flatter the sound. If everyone wanted ruler flat sound they would be buying studio monitors.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Many speakers meant for recreational listening have boosted or cut responses. For instance, many hifi speakers have scooped mids. My question is if the company tunes the speaker to scoop the mids, will it have the same amount of phase distortion that taking a flat speaker and scooping the mids with a minimum phase equalizer would cause?
I don't believe it. That is their excuse.

In listening studies listeners overwhelmingly prefer speakers with a flat response, especially across the mid band.

If you go out of your way to buy a spurious speaker you will regret it. That is why so many speaker buyers have remorse soon after purchase.
 
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
If people wanted the flattest speaker, everyone would just buy the Focal Solo or Genelec studio monitors
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If people wanted the flattest speaker, everyone would just buy the Focal Solo or Genelec studio monitors
Headphones are a different matter and the measurements debatable in terms of actually measuring what takes place. Speakers radiate into free space pretty much.

In any event those curves would be considered superior for most speakers. A speaker with those graphs would sound a little on the warm side like Sens do.

When it comes to speakers, the frequency response is only one of quite a number of measurements that need to be superior to have a great speaker. There are better speakers around than the ones you mention.

In any event you seem hell bent of buying a lousy set of speakers so go ahead. It's your money.
 
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
Obviously there are better speakers than the ones I listed for a higher price or that are bigger, but my point is that if someone wanted a flat speaker they would just get studio monitors. The point of a HIFI speaker isn't always necessarily to be flat (although it can be) but to flatter the sound.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I think you might benefit from a better understanding of how important sound dispersal is for loud speakers. This is something not asked of headphones.

A frequency response curve of a speaker, measured on-axis (directly in front of a speaker) only tells you part of how a speaker can create a realistic sounding image in a listening room. It's often spoken of as that "out of the box sound". The off-axis frequency response (measured at several angles off-axis) is a useful way of describing a speaker's dispersion abilities. Good dispersion involves woofer and tweeter selection, crossover frequencies, and cabinet design. Again, none of this is an issue with headphones. And often, studio monitors are designed with only one narrow listening angle.

When you read about a speaker, look for off-axis dispersion and power response. Many speaker manufacturers avoid talking about that.
 
Bizarro_Stormy

Bizarro_Stormy

Audioholics Whac-A-Mole'er™
:rolleyes:

The OP arguing the same question as 3 different aliases (peterh, Gintoh, Milton_Friedman) at Hydrogenaudio:
Would a non-neutral frequency response cause phase smearing?, One person with three aliases

The OP asking the same question at Reddit as alias Gintoh:
Question about phase and minimum phase EQs

The OP asking the same question again at Reddit (different section) as alias Gintoh:
Question about phase and minimum phase EQs

The OP asking the same question at Head-Fi as alias clairyvic:
Question about phase and minimum phase equalizers

The OP asking the same question at Future Producers as alias Milton_Friedman:
Question about phase and Minimum Phase EQs


Either the OP can't find anyone to agree with him and his premise... or... he enjoys wasting knowledgeable posters' time...

FG_brian.gif
 
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
And unbelievably after all of those threads I still haven't gotten a straight answer, some people have vaguely pointed toward the answer being "yes" (in very convoluted and unclear ways), yet NO ONE has explained why in a clear way. Unbelievable.

It's the pivotal question in an upcoming 5000$ audio purchase, so obviously I'm going to post a lot of threads about it in different places if I still don't have an answer
 
Last edited:
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
And unbelievably after all of those threads I still haven't gotten a straight answer, some people have vaguely pointed toward the answer being "yes" (in very convoluted and unclear ways), yet NO ONE has explained why in a clear way. Unbelievable.

It's the pivotal question in an upcoming 5000$ audio purchase, so obviously I'm going to post a lot of threads about it in different places if I still don't have an answer
You might get a straight answer if you ask a clear question.

Please tell us why you are concerned with "scooped mids" in hifi speakers? Do you want that in a speaker, or do want to avoid it? I assume by "scooped mid" you mean a reduced response across the mid range frequencies, as opposed to a flat frequency response across the mid range.

Also, please define "phase distortion" and tell us why you are concerned with it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
And unbelievably after all of those threads I still haven't gotten a straight answer, some people have vaguely pointed toward the answer being "yes" (in very convoluted and unclear ways), yet NO ONE has explained why in a clear way. Unbelievable.

It's the pivotal question in an upcoming 5000$ audio purchase, so obviously I'm going to post a lot of threads about it in different places if I still don't have an answer
The reason you have not got the answer you want, is because it is an idiotic question. There is no definite answer to it. You just have no clue about any aspect of this problem.

What I can say, is that frequency aberrations in speakers have a multiple causes often times with varying degrees of phase aberration directly related to the frequency response aberration.

All speakers even full ranger designs have some phase aberration. Most speakers have a lot of time and phase aberrations that have nothing to do with frequency response aberrations.

The frequency response says nothing about the phase response.

If I took a speaker and did a sine wave frequency response test but put a half second delay on the woofer or tweeter, the frequency response could be perfect, but the speaker would make a complete hash of anything fed to it, and speech would be unintelligible.

The next issue is EQ. These have often times been referred to a quality spoilers and they are.

The next issue is can you make a good speaker out of a lousy one that has a bad frequency response with an equalizer? The answer is a resounding no. The reason relates to retained energy especially in response peaks.

It takes a myriad of test and data to describe a speaker other than just frequency response and then you still have to listen to it.

Each designer has, or should have, an object in view when designing a speaker.

A smooth on axis is a prerequisite to a good speaker. In addition the off axis response to at least 30 degrees off axis must mirror the on axis response.

The we get to the issue of how resonant you want the LF response to be and how extensive.

This gets to how you want to load the driver and where you want Q. This describes how resonant the unit will be. I like speakers essentially non resonant with a q of around 0.5.

A lot like a little false warmth with a Q around point 0.7. I think most are agreed that q increasingly above this are tubby horrors.

The impulse response gives excellent insight into resonant over hang and phase and time response including inter driver delay.

The water fall is very revealing in showing up response anomalies and the excellence of the dispersion of the speaker, as well as revealing the excellence discontinuities in the crossover regions.

We are not done yet, as we get into power compression. Good expensive drivers can get the hear away from the voice coil fast so heat does not build up in the VC, and increase its resistance, lowering power output as volume increases. This can only be revealed by looking at output versus input.

The impedance plots are also revealing if you know what to look for. In addition looking at the impedance plot in conjunction to the phase relationship between driving voltage and current will tell you pretty much everything about how difficult a load the speaker will present to an amplifier.

The we have not got to sensitivity, and efficiency which are related but not the same thing. The problem here is that there is an inverse relationship between sensitivity and bass extension.

However if the speaker in insensitive, it will take a lot of power and have thermal compression problems.

Then you get into driver layout and optimal crossover design, which relates to the sort of sound stage you want.

I like accurate speakers, that perfectly preserve the tonal characteristics of voice and instruments in their own acoustic space. I like a wide and deep sound stage with the illusion of a believable acoustic space.

I want the bass deep, tight and non resonant.

After being at it for 60 years or so, I know how to get it.

In the end there are always compromises in every design. Good designs are the sum of intelligent choices with deft handing of the compromises required to complete a pleasing and functional design. This is where art, science and engineering intersect.

I hope this helps you, and makes you understand there is little to no point or relevance to your question.
 
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
Well I'd need a doctorate degree in audio to understand anything you just said, and this is the exact kind of incredibly opaque and over complicated answer to a very, very simple question (most of which doesn't have to do with the question) that I was talking about.

But I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to get an answer here, so forget about it.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Well I'd need a doctorate degree in audio to understand anything you just said, and this is the exact kind of incredibly opaque and over complicated answer to a VERY VERY simple question that I was talking about.
Then have it up straight. The only answer to your question is NO. Your question is not a simple question, but an idiot's question.

An idiot is also incapable of independent research into a complex subject to increase his understanding.

Your question is incapable of any other answer, because it has no fact or reason behind it, just total confusion and or fundamental misunderstandings.

As the great G.K. Chesterton, pointed out: - "If you argue with a lunatic you will get the worst of it!" This thread is now proving his point and your the one proving it!
 
Last edited:
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
:rolleyes:

The OP arguing the same question as 3 different aliases (peterh, Gintoh, Milton_Friedman)…

Either the OP can't find anyone to agree with him and his premise... or... he enjoys wasting knowledgeable posters' time...
Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I guess you got it right :D!



I skimmed over those threads you linked, and I was dumbfounded at this guy's ability to ignore or fail to understand a number of rather good answers on those forums.
 
M

Milton_Friedman

Enthusiast
Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I guess you got it right :D!



I skimmed over those threads you linked, and I was dumbfounded at this guy's ability to ignore or fail to understand a number of rather good answers on those forums.
Sure, if you're the type of audio expert who has 2000+ posts on an audio forum those answers might be easy for you to understand, but for the average person they aren't. Also there's another problem in that the answers may be good but they are contradictory. For instance many people in those threads said the exact opposite of what TLS guy said.





This is by far the clearest answer I got:



QUOTE (peterh @ May 6 2015, 17:52)
would a non-neutral frequency response for a speaker cause phase smearing?



Yes. Speaker drivers tend towards being minimum phase, but once there is more than one driver and crossovers, the phase response is relatively poor.

For example a speaker with a bass roll off generally has quite a bit of leading phase distortion.

QUOTE
EQs cause phase smearing.



Not necessarily. If used as a true equalizer, it compensates for the poor phase response of the speaker and the overall system has less phase smearing as you put it.

QUOTE
Would this happen if a company was making a speaker, and decided to ratchet up the bass 5 db?



Depends on how they do it.

QUOTE
Lets say there is a speaker with a 5db boost in the bass, would this 5 db bass boost that the company built in to the speaker, cause the same phase smearing that EQing up the bass 5db would cause?



Generally, yes.




But then TLS guy said the exact opposite and that the answer is no, do you see my dilemma?
 
Last edited:
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Well I'd need a doctorate degree in audio to understand anything you just said, and this is the exact kind of incredibly opaque and over complicated answer to a very, very simple question (most of which doesn't have to do with the question) that I was talking about.

But I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to get an answer here, so forget about it.
You got a simple answer on the very first reply: not necessarily. If you want to know why, things get more complicated.

/thread

PS: Some of the language you're using (now deleted) isn't tolerated here. Take a couple days to think about how you can better communicate with your fellow forum members.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top