Question about number and kind of drivers

J

jjwagner18

Enthusiast
I'm pretty cheap but the way I look at this is why pay twice? I say twice because I know darn well that if I liked the SongBird that I would immediately start saving for the Song Tower. In my case I've never paid more than $1000 for the two mains in my life but this time not only ordered Song Towers but added the ribbon tweeter option. This is a 10 year investment for me and I don't want to be doing it twice. They have to keep me happy for 10 years.

That's a good point. So far I'm feeling good about Salk speakers from what I've heard and Swerd has persuaded me the SongBird would be a nice fit but your making me wonder if I shouldn't just save up and go for the SongTowers. I could easily do it....

I really will never play my music loud though. Ever. I hate loud music. Gives me headaches. It would annoy me to put in the extra money for benefits I would really never experience....

Choices, choices.
 
S

skers_54

Full Audioholic
Kansas City, Kansas. It's a massive store but they really reduced the audio section I was dissapointed. You used to be able to match any speaker to any reciever and listen. Now they have a fraction of the selection and you can't even listen to a lot of them.
They pared the selection down quite a bit at the Omaha store too. Last time I went there, you could at least listen to most of them. It's kinda disappointing when there's more floor space devoted to HTiBs than real audio gear.
 
J

jjwagner18

Enthusiast
They pared the selection down quite a bit at the Omaha store too. Last time I went there, you could at least listen to most of them. It's kinda disappointing when there's more floor space devoted to HTiBs than real audio gear.
All I saw was Plasma televisions EVERYWHERE. Just millions of them. I guess that's how they're making their money these days. And ton of random Apple gadgets/paraphernalia that are moderately useful at best.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
All I saw was Plasma televisions EVERYWHERE. Just millions of them. I guess that's how they're making their money these days. And ton of random Apple gadgets/paraphernalia that are moderately useful at best.
I seriously doubt you will find a speaker that meets your requirements in a big box store.
 
J

jjwagner18

Enthusiast
I seriously doubt you will find a speaker that meets your requirements in a big box store.
I think you are right. From this thread I've made the kinds of speakers people are suggesting are a lot different than what I am familiar with and have seen in stores.


Okay so someone talk to me. I wanna to with Salk I think. Do I go for Soundbird or save up for a tower? Is a tower useless for low volume? Would I need a way more expensive reciever for a tower?
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I think you are right. From this thread I've made the kinds of speakers people are suggesting are a lot different than what I am familiar with and have seen in stores.


Okay so someone talk to me. I wanna to with Salk I think. Do I go for Soundbird or save up for a tower? Is a tower useless for low volume? Would I need a way more expensive reciever for a tower?
I think the thing to do is talk to Jim Salk. He answers the phone and is a really nice guy. His standard design wouldn't quite work in my case because of the my weirdly shaped space and Jim said no problem and we worked to together to modify his design to better suit my space. Try that with anybody else. ;)

I doubt you'll need any customizing but it's nice to work with somebody that cares that much. He's making me the two custom Song Tower RTs, a Song Center RT, and a pair of Song Surrounds. It's costing me enough to buy a nice used car but as I said before - for me it's a 10-15 year investment.

Anyway there is nothing like getting advice from the source so give Jim a call.
 
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J

jjwagner18

Enthusiast
I think the thing to do is talk to Jim Salk. He answers the phone and is a really nice guy. His standard design wouldn't quite work in my case because of the my weirdly shaped space and Jim said no problem and we worked to together to modify his design to better suit my space. Try that with anybody else. ;)

I doubt you'll need any customizing but it's nice to work with somebody that cares that much. He's making me the two custom Song Tower RTs, a Song Center, and a pair of Song Surrounds. It's costing me enough to buy a nice used car but as I said before - for me it's a 10-15 year investment.

Anyway there is nothing like getting advice from the source so give Jim a call.
Maybe I'll do that....
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
From this thread I've made the kinds of speakers people are suggesting are a lot different than what I am familiar with and have seen in stores.
I disagree. The type of speakers mentioned are exactly the same as could be bought in stores for the last 30+ yrs. A tweeter over woofer(s) on the face of a (most likely) ported box. There is and has been a mind numbing number of those in the marketplace. With minor variations (like "ribbon tweeter" or "cone material XYZ", etc, touted as radically different in sound), there is a generic sameness to the sound, instantaneously identifiable as "loudspeakers in living room" despite glowing descriptions as to otherwise. The main difference seems to be cosmetics, something like the Salk having a superb, beautiful finish. The things that really make a difference, like uniformity of polar response and its effect on the reverberant field, dynamic compression, smoothness in room LF response, etc....not so much. The performance parameters...and limitations...of the near infinite number of dome/ribbon-over-cone-in-box, is well established.

Okay so someone talk to me. I wanna to with Salk I think. Do I go for Soundbird or save up for a tower? Is a tower useless for low volume? Would I need a way more expensive reciever for a tower?
What I would suggest you do is listen for yourself, to the actual loudspeakers and decide, rather than rely on the advice of others (including me) as to specifically what to buy. Even though this might prove difficult or impossible for some models, it's your money. Spend it wisely. Audition what you can locally, or make sure the non locals have a return policy.
A speaker either meets your "sounds good" criteria or not, there is no "useless for low volume" or need for a "more expensive" receiver, unless the one you have lacks the required features (for surround format, digital thru-put, etc.).

cheers,

AJ
 
J

jjwagner18

Enthusiast
I disagree. The type of speakers mentioned are exactly the same as could be bought in stores for the last 30+ yrs. A tweeter over woofer(s) on the face of a (most likely) ported box. There is and has been a mind numbing number of those in the marketplace. With minor variations (like "ribbon tweeter" or "cone material XYZ", etc, touted as radically different in sound), there is a generic sameness to the sound, instantaneously identifiable as "loudspeakers in living room" despite glowing descriptions as to otherwise. The main difference seems to be cosmetics, something like the Salk having a superb, beautiful finish. The things that really make a difference, like uniformity of polar response and its effect on the reverberant field, dynamic compression, smoothness in room LF response, etc....not so much. The performance parameters...and limitations...of the near infinite number of dome/ribbon-over-cone-in-box, is well established.


What I would suggest you do is listen for yourself, to the actual loudspeakers and decide, rather than rely on the advice of others (including me) as to specifically what to buy. Even though this might prove difficult or impossible for some models, it's your money. Spend it wisely. Audition what you can locally, or make sure the non locals have a return policy.
A speaker either meets your "sounds good" criteria or not, there is no "useless for low volume" or need for a "more expensive" receiver, unless the one you have lacks the required features (for surround format, digital thru-put, etc.).

cheers,

AJ

It's relatively speaking. I'm refering to brands like Sony or Panosonic or something like that. I'm thinking brands I see at Best Buy and Target. This thread has expanded my horizons. (They were very, very narrow...)

Point well taken. I guess I felt insecure after I listened to $2000 Vienna and didn't see a huge difference from my 30 dollar boombox. I wondered if there was something wrong with me. Lost myself confidance.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
I guess I felt insecure after I listened to $2000 Vienna and didn't see a huge difference from my 30 dollar boombox. I wondered if there was something wrong with me. Lost myself confidance.
Not sure if there is anything wrong with you, but you're definitely not an audiophile, if you use your stereo equipment to listen to the music, rather than use the music to listen to your stereo system.
If you are in any way familiar with live classical music, then you certainly ought to be able to hear the difference (Vienna vs boombox), instantaneously. But perhaps the SQ of the reproduction is not the priority, but rather, the music.

cheers,

AJ
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Not sure if there is anything wrong with you, but you're definitely not an audiophile, if you use your stereo equipment to listen to the music, rather than use the music to listen to your stereo system.
If you are in any way familiar with live classical music, then you certainly ought to be able to hear the difference (Vienna vs boombox), instantaneously. But perhaps the SQ of the reproduction is not the priority, but rather, the music.

cheers,

AJ
I can easily see how he would be disappointed with the Vienna speakers. Once you add a crossover you have your work cut out to make it better than a full range driver in a potable radio. Complex speakers have sins of commission, whereas the simple full range driver largely has sins of omission as a rule. Sins of commission are far more serious and unpleasant.

Unfortunately a lot of audiophiles are in fact poor judges of speakers compared to the neophyte. In fact my experience is they become highly tolerant of a lot of common serious speaker faults.

You have to reset with concert attendance, and I don't mean concerts where there are electronic music and amplification. Constantly immunizing yourself from speaker ills takes constant work and vigilance.

If you are to be anything of a speaker designer maintaining those critical skills is vital.

My dealer in the Twin Cities took on a new line recently. It took me literally one note to realize the speakers were no good. Certainly by the end of the first bar I had them pegged.

Last time I was in his show room, they were nowhere to be seen. His question to me: "how could you tell so quickly?"

The reason is because I worked hard to develop the skill and continually work to keep it honed.

And although speakers may look similar, they are all usually significantly different and few of them any good.

The few good speakers tend to sound the same.

As far as whether the OP will get benefit from dual drivers at low volume, the answer is yes. With two drivers it is much easier to maintain energy and support throughout the lower mid range and bass, even at low volume.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I think you are right. From this thread I've made the kinds of speakers people are suggesting are a lot different than what I am familiar with and have seen in stores.

Okay so someone talk to me. I wanna to with Salk I think. Do I go for Soundbird or save up for a tower? Is a tower useless for low volume? Would I need a way more expensive reciever for a tower?
I don't think you'll be wrong with either choice SongBird or SongTower. Both will do well playing music at low volumes. With the relatively small room you described, maybe the SBs will be fine. Their price is attractively lower than the STs. Will you always be in that place? Or can you see yourself moving to some place larger? It does seem like your preference for low listening volumes is unlikely to change.

I agree with sholling about calling Jim Salk. He is very good at understanding what his customers (and potential customers) want. He probably has already talked with someone whose preferences are similar to yours. He sells internet direct and is happy to talk with people interested in his products. Don't hesitate to call him.

He may also know of someone nearby you (Kansas City?) who owns some STs. The SBs are new, and it is unlikely that many have been sold yet. You could arrange a listening session. I'd be glad to invite you to hear mine, but Kansas and Maryland are a bit distant.

With either the SBs or the STs, almost all available receivers will drive them well. I don't believe you mentioned what receiver or amp you'll use to drive the speakers you buy. Do you own something now, or are you still planning that as well?
 
J

jjwagner18

Enthusiast
Maryland is a bit farther away hah. The Vienna's sounded bad because I tested them at best buy and the sound room was horrible. I think that is why.

No I don't a receiver is in the works. I wanted to get the speaker thing figured out. I think the observation that I am not an audiophile was an important one. I'm really not. I am a reader. I have over 3,000 volumes already in my personal library (mostly history, but, not tryin' to brag, I do it all). That is my driving obsession in life. I don't have time for another one. :)


I will probably go on blind faith and invest in the song towers from what I've heard from you guys. It's a life long investment eh? I can pretty easily come up with the money, it'll just take a bit longer, but I'm patient and only 23. I think it would be stupid to invest in anything than the best given the circumstances I'm in.

So step 2. Talk to me about receivers. Any suggestions?
 
S

skers_54

Full Audioholic
Maryland is a bit farther away hah. The Vienna's sounded bad because I tested them at best buy and the sound room was horrible. I think that is why.

No I don't a receiver is in the works. I wanted to get the speaker thing figured out. I think the observation that I am not an audiophile was an important one. I'm really not. I am a reader. I have over 3,000 volumes already in my personal library (mostly history, but, not tryin' to brag, I do it all). That is my driving obsession in life. I don't have time for another one. :)


I will probably go on blind faith and invest in the song towers from what I've heard from you guys. It's a life long investment eh? I can pretty easily come up with the money, it'll just take a bit longer, but I'm patient and only 23. I think it would be stupid to invest in anything than the best given the circumstances I'm in.

So step 2. Talk to me about receivers. Any suggestions?
I think the AH member randyb is in KC and has a bunch of Salk stuff. I'd send him a PM and ask if you could take a listen. The bass from the songtowers will probably sound different from what you've heard, as they use a transmission line rather than a port.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
No I don't have a receiver is in the works. I wanted to get the speaker thing figured out. I think the observation that I am not an audiophile was an important one. I'm really not. I am a reader. I have over 3,000 volumes already in my personal library (mostly history, but, not tryin' to brag, I do it all). That is my driving obsession in life. I don't have time for another one. :)

I will probably go on blind faith and invest in the song towers from what I've heard from you guys. It's a life long investment eh? I can pretty easily come up with the money, it'll just take a bit longer, but I'm patient and only 23. I think it would be stupid to invest in anything than the best given the circumstances I'm in.

So step 2. Talk to me about receivers. Any suggestions?
The good news about receivers is that both the ST and SB are easy speakers to drive. High-powered and high-priced amplifiers are not required.

I've heard STs driven by a variety of receivers or amps, and none of them were inadequate.

There are many decent quality receivers (mainly HT, but some stereo are still available) capable of about 75-100 watts/channel or more. Some reliable brands to consider are Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, Harmon Kardon, Outlaw… You should focus on available power, price, user friendliness, and appearance. Try not to be confused by the many other features.

Don't loose any sleep about not being an audiophile. Many so-called audiophiles are burdened by believing some myths about audio reproduction that are borderline voodoo. Some are downright snake oil. The less you know about that the better.

Believe it or not, bookshelves filled with books make good sound absorption treatments. Bare walls can reflect too much sound, and cause trouble for good listening.

I think the AH member randyb is in KC and has a bunch of Salk stuff. I'd send him a PM and ask if you could take a listen. The bass from the songtowers will probably sound different from what you've heard, as they use a transmission line rather than a port.
I forgot about him. randyb (Randy Bessinger) is a long-time Salk speaker owner. I've never met him, but online he is a nice guy. He was recently selling some STs. Send him a PM to see what is left, if anything.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
I will probably go on blind faith and invest in the song towers from what I've heard from you guys.
So if I have this straight, you couldn't tell much improvement over your $30 boombox, with the 6.5" 2-way tower box Viennas, don't care about aesthetics, listen at lower volumes in you (bed)room....and will buy....$1500-$2000 beautifully finished 6.5" 2-way tower box Salk Songs??
You'll have to forgive me, but I was forced to take Logic as a core course, so that makes no sense to me whatsoever. Your money of course, not mine.
What would seem to make sense, is that you audition/buy a $200-$400 set of speakers, buy a $200 receiver...and spend the remaining $1000 on classical music. That should buy quite a bit of music...and is what you say you enjoy.
Between BB and Pro shops like Samash, Guitar Center, etc., you should be able to audition/buy/return if necessary, quite a few. The $150(pr) Behringer B2030p liked by many here comes to mind. Heck, BB sells their Insignia 6.5" 2 way bookshelf for $84/pr.

So step 2. Talk to me about receivers. Any suggestions?
http://store.audioholics.com/product/1123/66188/yamaha-rx-397-stereo-receiver for simplicity, less wrong buttons to push
or
http://store.audioholics.com/product/2937/69/yamaha-rx-v367-surround-receiver for future upgrade ability, more wrong buttons to push ;)

cheers,

AJ
 
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AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
The bass from the songtowers will probably sound different from what you've heard, as they use a transmission line rather than a port.
Why would the bass of a "Transmission Line" box sound different from a "ported" box in a room?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Why would the bass of a "Transmission Line" box sound different from a "ported" box in a room?
Yes, it is extremely different. It is the loading of choice for the music he needs to listen to.

I feel very short changed indeed when not listening to TLs.

Good speakers are far and few between.

As I pointed out previously, once you move away from a simple single full range driver, things get complicated, very complicated quickly.

The OP has been steered in the right direction by experienced members.

I have listened to $54,000 speaker sets, and yes I would rather have a car radio or table radio any day. Sins of commission are really difficult to live with, and a lot of expensive complex systems have those sins in spades.

So sorry but you are applying the wrong logic to this issue.

For classical music the OP is considering well priced entry level speakers, which he should be very happy with for many years.
 
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