Question about number and kind of drivers

[jjwagner18]

So I'm wanting to invest in some good speakers. I listen 90% to classical music and I DON'T like loud music. I have sensitive ears and I just find loud music distracting in general. I'm weird I dunno. I'm usually meditating or reading as I listen and loud music just distracts me and gives me a headache so volume is not an issue.

I've decided to go with floorstanding speakers becuase I've heard that they get better bass. Also I've heard subwoofers are great for movies but pretty much useless for music like classical not only becuase there aren't as many lows but that kind of music isn't even encoded for subwoofer lines so I've tossed out the bookshelf/sub combo and I'm just going with floorstanding with good bass. I hooked up a sub to some speakers I liked while playing my favorite classical song and the guy couldn't even figure out if the subwoofer was on becuase the music was using the sub so little. So yeah. Floorstanding, not too loud, high quality, good bass from drivers but not a woofer, um.....okay so here's my question.

What kind of driver set up do I want? For classical in paticular? Do I want like two mid drivers and then one bass driver or only one bass driver and two mids? I've just seen the combination of bass and mid drivers with so much variation I'm not sure how to think intelligently about it. Usually it seems there are actually one or two more bass drivers than mid drivers. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm thinking if I don't even like my music loud in the first place, only sounding good, then do I really even need that many drivers in the first place? Doesn't it just add to volume rather than quality after a while? I've heard the sound is just "parallelled" rather than enhanced with too many drivers.

Your thoughts are appreciated. Let me know if I was not clear anywhere. I am a noob but am doing as much research as I can.

 

[XEagleDriver]

Speaker configuration not the key!

So I'm wanting to invest in some good speakers. I listen 90% to classical music and I DON'T like loud music. . .

I've decided to go with floorstanding speakers because I've heard that they get better bass. . .

so I've tossed out the bookshelf/sub combo and I'm just going with floorstanding with good bass. . .

okay so here's my question.

What kind of driver set up do I want? For classical in paticular?

Do I want like two mid drivers and then one bass driver or only one bass driver and two mids? I've just seen the combination of bass and mid drivers with so much variation I'm not sure how to think intelligently about it. Usually it seems there are actually one or two more bass drivers than mid drivers.

Anyone have any thoughts? . . .

jjwagner,

There is no one magical driver combination that is "best for classical" or any other type of music for that matter.

You will be better served by the following process:

1) Set your speaker budget and post on this thread!
- Also tell us about your listening room; dimensions (W x D x H), and any significant acoustic impacts (openings to other rooms, floor type, large windows, etc.).

2) Select some classical music you are familiar with and pull those CDs or rip to a MP3 player in a lossless or high bit-rate format.
- I would include music with; decent bass, female vocals, and the instruments you favor (strings, woodwinds, brass, etc.). Three to five songs should be sufficient. Human audio memory is pretty short!

3) Go listen to speakers in your price range at local audio shops (warning BBuy has a horrible listening environment).
- Selecting two models and going back and forth until you feel you can remember the differences/preferences.
- Note amplifier type/power and room treatments to help with fair comparisons to other shops/rooms.

4) Read up on the internet direct speaker companies (Salk, SVS, etc.) as well as speakers not marketed in your area but available on-line and see if their reviews support your goals.

5) Return to this thread with either a short-list of speakers you are interested in or a couple models you like to get ideas on other similiar makes/models.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

 

[highfigh]

So I'm wanting to invest in some good speakers. I listen 90% to classical music and I DON'T like loud music. I have sensitive ears and I just find loud music distracting in general. I'm weird I dunno. I'm usually meditating or reading as I listen and loud music just distracts me and gives me a headache so volume is not an issue.

I've decided to go with floorstanding speakers becuase I've heard that they get better bass. Also I've heard subwoofers are great for movies but pretty much useless for music like classical not only becuase there aren't as many lows but that kind of music isn't even encoded for subwoofer lines so I've tossed out the bookshelf/sub combo and I'm just going with floorstanding with good bass. I hooked up a sub to some speakers I liked while playing my favorite classical song and the guy couldn't even figure out if the subwoofer was on becuase the music was using the sub so little. So yeah. Floorstanding, not too loud, high quality, good bass from drivers but not a woofer, um.....okay so here's my question.

What kind of driver set up do I want? For classical in paticular? Do I want like two mid drivers and then one bass driver or only one bass driver and two mids? I've just seen the combination of bass and mid drivers with so much variation I'm not sure how to think intelligently about it. Usually it seems there are actually one or two more bass drivers than mid drivers. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm thinking if I don't even like my music loud in the first place, only sounding good, then do I really even need that many drivers in the first place? Doesn't it just add to volume rather than quality after a while? I've heard the sound is just "parallelled" rather than enhanced with too many drivers.

Your thoughts are appreciated. Let me know if I was not clear anywhere. I am a noob but am doing as much research as I can.

You don't absolutely need floorstanding speakers, especially if the receiver/processor you use has some kind of equalization, like Audyssey. I ran Audyssey last week after buying a Denon AVR-990 (I decided that I need to be able to demo this stuff) and my speakers are 6-1/2" two-way. The difference between the sub being in or out was slight on most of the music I played and that made me happy, since I built these. Personally, I don't care if the response isn't flat to below 30Hz but I still want everything to sound realistic. I just don't care about movie sound effects that much. However, at low volume, we don't hear bass or treble as well as we hear mid-range sounds, so something that's a bit stronger at the extremes won't hurt. If it's too much, you can always use the tone controls to reduce it.

 

[sholling]

So I'm wanting to invest in some good speakers. I listen 90% to classical music and I DON'T like loud music. I have sensitive ears and I just find loud music distracting in general. I'm weird I dunno. I'm usually meditating or reading as I listen and loud music just distracts me and gives me a headache so volume is not an issue.

Then I would look for something with very detailed sound and great imaging. Most people crank up the volume to try to recapture missing detail - they just don't realize that's why. I learned this when I went to high-end in-ear-monitors (headphones) and found myself very happy at much lower volumes.

I've decided to go with floorstanding speakers becuase I've heard that they get better bass.

In general yes towers will have much better bass extension than bookshelves but few towers go below 40hz with any authority.

Also I've heard subwoofers are great for movies but pretty much useless for music like classical not only becuase there aren't as many lows

Yes and no. Some classical organ will go below human hearing (<20hz).

but that kind of music isn't even encoded for subwoofer lines so I've tossed out the bookshelf/sub combo

It doesn't have to encoded with a subwoofer track. The receiver will simply redirect deep bass to the subwoofer. They can get away with this because frequencies below 80hz are hard to localize.

I'm just going with floorstanding with good bass.

That's a legitimate choice. I personally like towers with a sub to pick up the deep bass under 40hz but you have to make that choice for yourself. Perhaps start with towers and supplement the deep bass later on with a sub.

What kind of driver set up do I want?

This is really less important than the overall design of the speaker and the quality of the drivers and crossover. For example I'm about to move from a decent quality 3 way speakers with decent drivers, to very premium two way speakers with super premium grade drivers, a superbly engineered crossover, and a cabinet engineered to deliver 40hz bass extension. If you read this speaker shootout you'll see all kinds of driver arrangements that will illustrate what I mean. Who'd have thunk it.

What would really help is your budget. Then we could make some recommendations.

 

[adwilk]

Its been my experience that just trying to determine a particular sound based on a speakers design can be very counterproductive. I've heard many floorstanders whos design would indicate rich bass fall very short and smaller bookshelves reproduce bass in ways that I felt shouldn't based on design.

In short, you really can't determine what a speaker will sound like until you actually listen to it. Sounds like thats what you need to do....

 

[TLS Guy]

So I'm wanting to invest in some good speakers. I listen 90% to classical music and I DON'T like loud music. I have sensitive ears and I just find loud music distracting in general. I'm weird I dunno. I'm usually meditating or reading as I listen and loud music just distracts me and gives me a headache so volume is not an issue.

I've decided to go with floorstanding speakers becuase I've heard that they get better bass. Also I've heard subwoofers are great for movies but pretty much useless for music like classical not only becuase there aren't as many lows but that kind of music isn't even encoded for subwoofer lines so I've tossed out the bookshelf/sub combo and I'm just going with floorstanding with good bass. I hooked up a sub to some speakers I liked while playing my favorite classical song and the guy couldn't even figure out if the subwoofer was on becuase the music was using the sub so little. So yeah. Floorstanding, not too loud, high quality, good bass from drivers but not a woofer, um.....okay so here's my question.

What kind of driver set up do I want? For classical in paticular? Do I want like two mid drivers and then one bass driver or only one bass driver and two mids? I've just seen the combination of bass and mid drivers with so much variation I'm not sure how to think intelligently about it. Usually it seems there are actually one or two more bass drivers than mid drivers. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm thinking if I don't even like my music loud in the first place, only sounding good, then do I really even need that many drivers in the first place? Doesn't it just add to volume rather than quality after a while? I've heard the sound is just "parallelled" rather than enhanced with too many drivers.

Your thoughts are appreciated. Let me know if I was not clear anywhere. I am a noob but am doing as much research as I can.

There are many ways to design a good speaker, and even more ways to design bad ones.

You need to listen to music. We need a budget. Picking a speaker on driver layout is certainly the wrong way to pick a good speaker.

Although you listen to classical music, that encompasses a huge range. So we need to know listening preferences. There is a lot of music in the genres that encompass the term "classical, that do require good reproduction of the last octave.

The other issue is that good performance in the last octave certainly adds to the feeling of space and being there.

I listen to virtually no pop music, but I would not give up the last octave.

In one of my systems the speakers are truly full range in the other a couple of subs are used. I agree most of the time those subs are sitting by idle, but when you need them you need them.

Most pre pros and receivers for that matter, will send bass from the LFE output, but not in direct or pure direct modes.

 

[jjwagner18]

Okay those are very helpful responses. Well my room is small. Just a normal bedroom. I'm not sure what the dimensions are but it's smaller than a living room. As far as budget is concerned, I'm more about getting a good value (obviously). I can spend as much money as I want it'l just take me longer to save up. If a $1500 set up is REALLY worth it then theoretically I could save that much. The main reason I couldn't settle on a price is becuase I couldn't figure out the driver conconfiguration. I was looking at Axiom and PolkAudio speakers and I saw speakers from $400 to $2000 but I just couldn't figure out what a good value would be. The driver configurations were confusing me too much.

Right now I'm listening to a piece of crap sony boombox from the 90's that probably cost $30. You may lose respect for me if I say this but I don't think it's THAT bad. I mean it's bad, don't get me wrong, but it's not horrifying. With that said I'd like to invest in some speakers but I'm not too picky I don't think. I listened to some 2000 dollar Vienna's at Best Buy and they were not really that good. At least they didn't sound $1,970 dollar improvement from my 90's boombox. For how I define value it wasn't worth it.

So I dunno, I will probably be a scavenger and buy used, but I can see myself buying a $1000-1200 set for $800 or so dollars used (tell me if that is unrealistic.)

I sampled Polk Audio at Nebraska Furniture Mart and it seemed to sound the best. The thing that I just cant figure out is what is changing with all the driver variations. That's why I couldn't decide on a model. If you look at the RTi series the driver configurations change so much on each model I don't know what I'm gaining or losing with the extra money I put or don't put in. The A7 looked nice but the A9 has an additional midrange and I wondered if that would be better for classical and thus worth the extra money. Axiom m60 or m80 look nice. But again driver config it halting my progress in my thinking. Nebraska Furniture Mart didn't have any of these to sample.

Are the additonal driver on the A9 and the M80 more for volume or sound do you think?


Okay I'll stop rambling and hopefully one of you can make sense of my thoughts.

Oh wait wait one more thing. I saw on PolkAudio a review that said great speaker even though not "full range." Do I need a full range floorstanding? The full range one had more drivers.

 

[jjwagner18]

As you can see I'm still all flustered by the driver thing haha

 

[TLS Guy]

As you can see I'm still all flustered by the driver thing haha

If it is classical music you want to play in a room that size, I'm going to strongly recommend you save for these.

A little have your price range, but a price pretty much entry level for classical music.

I think you need to set your sites above Polk and I agree Vienna speakers are garbage.

You can spend a lot of money and still have sound worse than your old boom box!

 

[jjwagner18]

You can spend a lot of money and still have sound worse than your old boom box!

No kidding! Which is why I'm harassing you guys! Hey you'll be proud of me I was actually looking those up yesterday, I heard they were really good. Couldn't find them used anywhere...but it could be a lifetime investment. You think Polk and Axiom are not aiming high enough?

(Could I play metal on those if I ever wanted to have a guilty pleasure....)

 

[njedpx3]

+1 for Salk Song Towers

If it is classical music you want to play in a room that size, I'm going to strongly recommend you save for these.

A little have your price range, but a price pretty much entry level for classical music.

I think you need to set your sites above Polk and I agree Vienna speakers are garbage.

You can spend a lot of money and still have sound worse than your old boom box!

+1 for Salk Song Towers


I would suggest you take your classical music to nearby finer HT stores and audition, audition, audition as many speakers as you can in your price range. Also, read the Audioholic reviews -- both pro and members.

Peace, Good Sound and Good Video,

Forest Man

 

[Seth=L]

If you want full range speakers, and don't mind shopping used I recommend Vandersteen 2Ce. It's a full range 4 way system that has useful bass below 30hz. They require careful placement and the sound anchors (most of the ones you see used will have them with them).

They are commonly seen on Audiogon for reasonable prices.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1275593799&/Vandersteen-2ce-Signatures-use

 

[jjwagner18]

Man that's a good deal. Can you explain what that term "full range" means?

 

[Seth=L]

Man that's a good deal. Can you explain what that term "full range" means?

In my opinion a full range speaker is one that does not require a subwoofer to cover nearly the entire audible range. The Vandersteen 2Ce does this with no problem.

 

[jjwagner18]

In my opinion a full range speaker is one that does not require a subwoofer to cover nearly the entire audible range. The Vandersteen 2Ce does this with no problem.

So only $675 dollars? What's the catch? That's so affordable...

 

[Seth=L]

So only $675 dollars? What's the catch? That's so affordable...

The Vandersteen model 2 principle design has been around since the 80's, there have been countless speakers manufactured under this moniker, we are presently at the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature IIs I believe. The Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures have been around for a while, but I don't think that particular version start production until after 2000. Anyway, the market is flooded with Vandersteens on the west coast (which is 90% of where you will see these coming from in the used market) so their "market" value is quite low. Surprisingly they are one of the most neutral speakers for their full retail price and their operational range is superior to virtually any speaker costing as much or more as well.

Seeing that that listing has been active only 2 days and virtually every other Vandersteen speaker on AudioGon has been sold already, it's pretty easy to see that the deal won't last for long. They'll be gone before you can say potatoes. I've seen 2Ce Sigs go for over $800 used, so it's a good deal to be sure.

It appears the "catch", if there is one, is that you have to be local or you will need to buy the Vandersteen boxes for that model for the seller to ship them in.

 

[jjwagner18]

Gotcha, well I appreciate he help. I'll be frequenting that website methinks...

 

[Knucklehead90]

Another speaker to take a look at is Revel Concerta. A decent alternative to the Revel would be Infinity Beta 50s. They play very deep with good bass. In such a small room no sub would be needed. The Concerta is very similar to the Beta 50s - both are made by Harman Kardon.

For bookshelf speakers that play low The Polk LSi9 may interest you. They play down to 38hz according to Polk's specs.

I may have missed it - what AVR or receiver will you be using to drive the new speakers?

 

[Seth=L]

Harman International owns Infinity and Revel, there's a good chance the drivers are very similar, however I would expect higher quality cabinet materials on the Revels as well as a better cross-over. I just had to put the "both are made by Harman Kardon" statement in more realistic terms.

 

[Swerd]

+2 for the SongTowers.

I own a pair and strongly recommend them. The designer, Dennis Murphy (who also designed most of the Salk models), is a violinist in a local orchestra and almost always listens to classical music. I'm not saying that a speaker will only sound good with classical music if it is designed by someone who listens to classical, but it certainly is true in the case of those Salk speakers.

In your original post you mentioned that you rarely listen at loud levels and you asked what is different when there are multiple woofers. When going from an MTM design, such as the SongTowers (with two midwoofers and one tweeter), to a simpler MT design with one woofer, such as the Salk SongSurround I or the new SongBird, the main thing you give up is power handling and volume. They cost somewhat less than the SongTower, have a similar overall sound, and may be what you’re looking for.