Question about next upgrade

[Pandaman617]

Hi guys, I have a question and want to see the general consensus. My setup is as follows: (also bear in mind I did a boat load of buying and selling to get the current setup I have and am in it for less than $1,000 total so that’s a plus)

1) Display - TCL R55617

2) Receiver - Denon AVR-X3300W & Harmon Kardon AVR55 powering the mains and for two channel music.

3) Subwoofer - Wharfedale SW250 10” sealed 250 watt RMS. Can’t find much info on it but at one point it sold for $1299 I guess. Seems to be going used for $300-$500. I got it for free with a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 towers I flipped.

4) Mains - Mirage Omni 260 towers
5) Center- Definitive Technology CLR2500
6) Top Middle - Definitive Technology ProCinema 600’s
7) Surrounds - Alternate between Mirage MBS bi-polar bookshelf speakers and Cambridge Soundworks Tower II’s.

I eventually want to get a pair of Def Tech Super Towers with 8” or 10” towers. The BP8020 series or something I can get a pair for $370 shipped used. I know the system isn’t timbre matched and I do have the matching Omni CC but I love having a full range CC and honestly it doesn’t bother me as much as I thought not having timbre matched speakers would. I’m looking to spend $200-$250 to upgrade the surrounds, subwoofer or something. What would give me the most noticeable and audible performance increase? I can get a pair of Def Tech SM350’s with the passive 10” woofers for $170 and than use them as mains and move the 260’s to the rear for surrounds and than when I get the BP8020’s use the SM350’s for surrounds. Should I get a good power amp? I believe the X3300W is putting out about 80-85 watts to all 5 channels that are being used. I’ve got used options from Adcom, NAD & Parasound. Any input would be appreciated!

 

[Phase 2]

You got the bug uhu.. you have a good system now. Are you just wanting better tower speakers? If your looking for "noticeable" put as much bucks into a really good pair of LCR speakers. Polk's got a 50% off going on now. Their LSiM line the whole line. Then Klipsch's 8000 are on sale to I believe. Amp? Outside of something alone the line of 200 @ 8 Ohms even than you'll only notice that reference levels or higher. Unless you go and get a CODA amp that'll kick up to peak 150 amps, yeah thats right I said amps. But that'll set you back about 6K plus.

 

[Pandaman617]

Oh geez! I saw the Polk’s on sale and I’ve heard the towers and they were incredible. I think I may just save my money and spend the $370 for the pair of the BP8020’s on e-Bay. If they’re broken or garbage I can always send them back. I think with 3 full range speakers in front it’ll be fun and I’ve messed around and found the Omni 260’s to be excellent surround speakers. I just found a pair of Omni 60’s which I could use as surround’s and I think they would be much better than the MBS Bi-Polar Mirages I have now or the CSW Tower II’s. Ahhh so addicting haha. I was surprised at the Cambridge Soundworks drivers. I believe they retailed for $1000 same as my 260’s but the drivers in them are some crappy Taiwan company. Great solid cabs but not really impressed sound quality wise. Down the line I was looking at using the cabs at my first attempt
To build a pair of speakers with my own crossovers, drivers, etc. it’s a good thing my wife and I discuss our finances weekly otherwise she’ d be pretty surprised when our savings was gone but I had a new 13.2 Dolby Atmos setup! But one can dream haha

 

[Pandaman617]

You got the bug uhu.. you have a good system now. Are you just wanting better tower speakers? If your looking for "noticeable" put as much bucks into a really good pair of LCR speakers. Polk's got a 50% off going on now. Their LSiM line the whole line. Then Klipsch's 8000 are on sale to I believe. Amp? Outside of something alone the line of 200 @ 8 Ohms even than you'll only notice that reference levels or higher. Unless you go and get a CODA amp that'll kick up to peak 150 amps, yeah thats right I said amps. But that'll set you back about 6K plus.

So when I walk into my local high end audio store and the guy tells me I should get a Monolith or Parasound 7 channel amp for my Denon is this just a sales pitch? I showed them my exact system and he told me and I quote “You’ll have far better low end response and clearer highs because of the better quality power going to the speakers” now I’m still a novice but I thought the X3300W was a good midrange AVR and that 80-85 watts per channel should be more than enough for any good quality efficient speakers? I think the front of my Denon says “215 Watts” per channel but I’m almost positive that’s with some stupid misleading measurement scale they use for marketing.

 

[Phase 2]

So when I walk into my local high end audio store and the guy tells me I should get a Monolith or Parasound 7 channel amp for my Denon is this just a sales pitch? I showed them my exact system and he told me and I quote “You’ll have far better low end response and clearer highs because of the better quality power going to the speakers” now I’m still a novice but I thought the X3300W was a good midrange AVR and that 80-85 watts per channel should be more than enough for any good quality efficient speakers? I think the front of my Denon says “215 Watts” per channel but I’m almost positive that’s with some stupid misleading measurement scale they use for marketing.

Ummm, if that's what he/she told you? Yeah definitely a sales pitch, they did recommend some quality amps. That Denon unit is capable of a lot more @ 2 channel output it's not a entry level AVR. I'd say closer to 120 X 2 @ 8 Ohms, talking headroom here. Speakers will get you where wanting improvement.

 

[Pandaman617]

Ummm, if that's what he/she told you? Yeah definitely a sales pitch, they did recommend some quality amps. That Denon unit is capable of a lot more @ 2 channel output it's not a entry level AVR. I'd say closer to 120 X 2 @ 8 Ohms, talking headroom here. Speakers will get you where wanting improvement.

Thanks man!

 

[Phase 2]

Your welcome! No your Not a novice, I see you have done your homework and researching tellings me you already know what to look out for. If by chance you run into PENG, he's way more technical than I am, learned a lot from him and other's in here. Hit him up he's a great guy to chat with.

 

[Pandaman617]

Your welcome! No your Not a novice, I see you have done your homework and researching tellings me you already know what to look out for. If by chance you run into PENG, he's way more technical than I am, learned a lot from him and other's in here. Hit him up he's a great guy to chat with.

Thank you I really appreciate it I’ll shoot him a message!

 

[PENG]

Thank you I really appreciate it I’ll shoot him a message!

Got your message right here before you shoot me anything haha..

I would like you to read the following linked:

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The X3300W and X3400H's amp sections are very likely the same so the above linked bench test results should apply to both.

Then you can use the linked calculator to find out how much power you need, and that should tell you if your sales rep just bs you or not.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

if you have trouble using that calculator, just tell us you seating distance, room dimensions, and how loud you listen (e.g. as loud as that in a movie theater, or much quieter),or even the highest volume setting you ever use when watching your favorite action movie should give us some hints, assuming you did run auto setup/Audyssey.

 

[Pandaman617]

Got your message right here before you shoot me anything haha..

I would like you to read the following linked:

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The X3300W and X3400H's amp sections are very likely the same so the above linked bench test results should apply to both. The X3400H has a slightly better DAC chip and a few additional features.

Then you can use the linked calculator to find out how much power you need, and that should tell you if your sales rep just bs you or not.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

if you have trouble using that calculator, just tell us you seating distance, room dimensions, and how loud you listen (e.g. as loud as that in a movie theater, or much quieter), or even the highest volume setting you ever use when watching your favorite action movie should give us some hints, assuming you did run auto setup/Audyssey.

Wow! Thank you so much! I’m going to give it a shot once I get home. I recently experimented with the Shroder Frequency I believe it’s called and the Audyssey app. The calculator showed my Shroder frequency for my room is 180hz so I only corrected up to that and I do have to say maybe it’s just turning off the room EQ for the mid and top end but it sounds much better to me. I also did the sub crawl
yesterday and found a much better place for my sub. It seems like some people love Audyssey and others hate it. I’ve heard it’s just a glorified ruler and dB meter but I’ve also read posts saying how much it improved a specific listening area. I’m in a basement (I’ll post pics later) with wood paneling from the 60’s, a crappy drop ceiling from the 60’s and thick cement flooring so I’ve always found my low end response lacking which was leading me to possibly purchase another subwoofer

 

[PENG]

Wow! Thank you so much! I’m going to give it a shot once I get home. I recently experimented with the Shroder Frequency I believe it’s called and the Audyssey app. The calculator showed my Shroder frequency for my room is 180hz so I only corrected up to that and I do have to say maybe it’s just turning off the room EQ for the mid and top end but it sounds much better to me. I also did the sub crawl
yesterday and found a much better place for my sub. It seems like some people love Audyssey and others hate it. I’ve heard it’s just a glorified ruler and dB meter but I’ve also read posts saying how much it improved a specific listening area. I’m in a basement (I’ll post pics later) with wood paneling from the 60’s, a crappy drop ceiling from the 60’s and thick cement flooring so I’ve always found my low end response lacking which was leading me to possibly purchase another subwoofer

My question on whether you ran Audyssey is just so I know if we can go by your volume position, when trying to guessimate how much power you may currently be using when watching a Blu ray movie (especially those mastered to THX standards). Audyssey auto setup would calibrate your AVR's level such that at volume "0", you should get about 85 dB average, C weighting from you main mic position.

 

[Pandaman617]

Hey guys. So I gave the Harmon Kardon I had powering my mains to my father along with the pair of Mirage MBS speakers as I’m slowly trying to introduce him to what music sounds like not coming out of the $19.99 Creative Labs speakers he got at Wal-Mart. That being said I’m now using all 7 channels of the X3300W. I picked up a decibel meter and calibrated all 7 channels to 85dB and the only ones that needed a boost instead of cutting power was the surrounds they needed to be increased 2.5dB and 2.0dB. Everything is crossed over at 80hz besides my center channel which I have at 40hz. I’d really like to run it full range along with my mains, however the Omni 260’s may have a -3dB point of 35hz but clearly for my use (70% Xbox One X multi channel audio gaming & 30 % Blu-Ray/Streamjng media) I’m making the assumption that dedicated subwoofer even a smaller 8” would produce exponentially more bass. Weekends are crazy for me but during this coming week I plan on rearranging my whole system/room which I’ll post pics of as I definitely need some input on a few things. But back to the running mains as full range, I found a Def Tech Prosub 800 for $92 shipped that was still in the original box and factory packaging so I took a leap and ordered it. My plan is to run the speaker level input instead of the LFE so I can run the Omni 260’s as large to match my CLR2500. I know ultimately everyone says let your ears be the judge but do you guys foresee any sound quality disadvantages to this? Just with experimenting with the 3300, I’ve noticed if I run everything crossed over at 80-100hz instead of 40hz the mid range and high end is much clearer which is something that should have been obvious to me but I was actually really excited about it haha. My whole issue right now is that with where the 260’s are my left speaker is about 8’ from the side wall and 2.5’ from the rear wall but the right speaker has NO side wall and is 2.5’ from the rear wall. From what I understand the Omni 260’s are kinda placement sensitive and they may (or may not? I can’t find a definitive answer) sound much better when I move them which will put them each 3’ from the side wall and 3’ from the rear wall.

 

[Pandaman617]

Managed to snag 5 black mint condition Mirage Omnisats for $40 from a guy on Craigslist who was a 4 hour round trip but it was worth it! He bought them expecting a tiny Omnisat to produce bass and was just frustrated at the 4.5” woofer “barely making half the bass my Bose Lifestyles 25 makes” I didn’t want to explain to him that it’s because from what I understand the Bose “Acoustimass” subwoofer (if you can call it that) runs speaker level with all the sats through it so it’s getting the low end information from all the channels. Regardless, I have up on switching over to Def Tech speakers and have put the CLR2500 away for now. I got a ProSub 800 for $92 shipped that came in as well and for such a small cab I think it added just what I was intending. So I’ve got two Omnisats for top middles, two Omnisats on the API stands for surrounds and the Omni 260/CC up front. I’m very pleased with it. There’s a guy selling 4 Omni 50’s for about $300 shipped on e-Bay which is tempting but I’ve got my heart set on a pair of OM-6’s, with OM-10’s for surrounds, the OM-C2 and a pair of the M1’s which I’ve heard so much about. A guy I work with heard me talking about Mirage and he wants to get rid of everything as he just switched everything over to Sonos. We agreed on $1,000 cash for all 3 pairs of towers and the center channel. Is this a decent bargain? Everything I’ve ever read about the M1’s says they’re amazing and I’ve always kept my eyes open for a pair but they’re either too expensive when they come up or 500 miles away with no chance at them being shipped.

 

[Pandaman617]

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I would say if you want to quickly add some performance, look at a new subwoofer. Your hifi guy is full of crap and just wants to sell you an amp. You’ll know when it’s time to add one. Invest in a quality subwoofer and you’ll be really glad you did. Or mad you didn’t do it sooner!