Question about gear hook up

[moves]

I have a Mcintosh 302 external amp and a Pioneer Elite AVR. I want to add a Macintosh pre amp down the road to power the main speakers when listening to music. OR even use the MCintosh Preamp permanently if I can bypass the Pioneer Elite Pre amp. I would still need the Elite's processor for HT.

I have a 5.1 channel system and will be upgrading to a 7.2 down the road.

I don't think this is possible but I was wondering about your opinion.

If not, Maybe there is a separate HT processor that I can use for HT processing.

 

[lovinthehd]

There are units with an "HT bypass" function that sounds like what you're looking for and likely some McIntosh unit has such...but if you want to just have a separate 2ch system you could perhaps just use a speaker/amp switch box as to which amps power the speakers at a given time.

 

[moves]

There are units with an "HT bypass" function that sounds like what you're looking for and likely some McIntosh unit has such...but if you want to just have a separate 2ch system you could perhaps just use a speaker/amp switch box as to which amps power the speakers at a given time.

Thanks for the reply. I am not quite at this stage yet but am curious if this is possible. So I threw the question out there.

 

[fuzz092888]

So let me get this straight. You want t be able to do something like this

Pio and Mc pre to the amplifier to the speakers? So both the Pio and the Mc Pre are feeding a single amplifier?

You could do it with some RCA or XLR splitters and that would probably work alright. What is your source for the music?

 

[moves]

So let me get this straight. You want t be able to do something like this

Pio and Mc pre to the amplifier to the speakers? So both the Pio and the Mc Pre are feeding a single amplifier?

You could do it with some RCA or XLR splitters and that would probably work alright. What is your source for the music?

You got it! What I am trying to avoid is having to spend more money on another set of speakers only for music.

However, I don't think it would be possible to set it up the way I explained because there would have to be a way to bypass the PIOs processor. This option is definitely not available in the PIOs setup.

But, I am not a master when it comes to audio. I am a few steps ahead of a beginner but I think I will forever stay this way.

 

[moves]

Whoops! I am using my computer VIA optical cable and using the PIOs DAC.

 

[Latent]

If your source is digital into the pioneer DAC then you do have a couple of options for 2.0 stereo music.

There is a feature called stream direct but it may be different on your unit. Don't know what model you have or how new it is sorry.

With stream direct you push the Auto (Auto Surr/ACL/Stream Direct) button and it switches between 4 sound modes:

Auto Surrond which is your normal mode
ACL which is the same as above but adjusts for listening to lower volumes by changing the frequency balance.
DIRECT where it reduces modifications and processing but still applies MCACC and possibly bass control
PURE DIRECT plays back unmodifed sound from source with only minimal digital treatment which means you may lose bass managment so no sub output.

So if the internal DAC is new enough and of a good well respected make/model then one of these modes may give you almost the same ideal setup you wanted without changing any of your equipment.

Your source is Digital optical in 44-192khz/ 16-24bit and in PURE DIRECT you just get the signal going straight to the internal hopefully well rated DAC and then being sent through the pioneer's volume control IC and out the PRE-Outs to the amplifier.

If you really wanted to avoid the pioneer then you could look into finding a well reviewed external DAC (optical or USB input) and connecting that direct to the power amp inputs. many of these units have good pre-amp controls built right in so they can replace a super expensive Pre-Amplifier with something that handles just 1-2 inputs and provides the best analog quality. If you prefer this sound then you could get a very cheap RCA switch box in front of the Power amp inputs to mechanically switch between the two pre-amps.

 

[moves]

If your source is digital into the pioneer DAC then you do have a couple of options for 2.0 stereo music.

There is a feature called stream direct but it may be different on your unit. Don't know what model you have or how new it is sorry.

With stream direct you push the Auto (Auto Surr/ACL/Stream Direct) button and it switches between 4 sound modes:

Auto Surrond which is your normal mode
ACL which is the same as above but adjusts for listening to lower volumes by changing the frequency balance.
DIRECT where it reduces modifications and processing but still applies MCACC and possibly bass control
PURE DIRECT plays back unmodifed sound from source with only minimal digital treatment which means you may lose bass managment so no sub output.

So if the internal DAC is new enough and of a good well respected make/model then one of these modes may give you almost the same ideal setup you wanted without changing any of your equipment.

Your source is Digital optical in 44-192khz/ 16-24bit and in PURE DIRECT you just get the signal going straight to the internal hopefully well rated DAC and then being sent through the pioneer's volume control IC and out the PRE-Outs to the amplifier.

If you really wanted to avoid the pioneer then you could look into finding a well reviewed external DAC (optical or USB input) and connecting that direct to the power amp inputs. many of these units have good pre-amp controls built right in so they can replace a super expensive Pre-Amplifier with something that handles just 1-2 inputs and provides the best analog quality. If you prefer this sound then you could get a very cheap RCA switch box in front of the Power amp inputs to mechanically switch between the two pre-amps.

Thanks for your detailed response. I can see that working. What about the Dolby processing for HT though? Do you think there is a way to bypass the PIO's preamp (USE the macintosh preamp) and just use the PIO's HT processor? Sounds like too good to be true.

 

[Latent]

Thanks for your detailed response. I can see that working. What about the Dolby processing for HT though? Do you think there is a way to bypass the PIO's preamp (USE the macintosh preamp) and just use the PIO's HT processor? Sounds like too good to be true.

A pre-amp is a device that takes a line level source (or a digital line level signal and passes it though a DAC stage to get it analog) and then adjusts the volume ready for the fixed gain power amp stage. A multichannel AV unit has to have volume control built in and for many reasons you only want one pre-amp stage controlling volume in your audio signal path. So you can't use an external pre-amplifier with the outputs of AVR that are already at pre-amp level without causing problems.

There are some stereo pre-amps that have what is called Home Theater Bypass option. A stereo pre-amp is basically a set of analog inputs in front of a selector switch before passing though a volume control stage and then to the analog pre-output (There are extra optional stages like Bass/Treble control etc as well in the path sometimes). But some amps have a special HT Bypass input which you connect to to the pre-outs of your multi-channel surround pre-amp front left and right outputs. This input bypasses all the internal pre-amps stages and is wired straight to the pre-outs when HT bypass input is selected. This means when the pre-amp is in this mode it is not acting as a pre-amp at all and just connects A direct to B. The same power amplifier and front left/right speakers are still used but the volume control and source selection is all done by the surround Pre-amp. The surround/center channels are connected directly to this same unit and are separated from your pure stereo setup.

My personal opinion is that high end expensive analog stereo pre-amps don't make anything sound any better. If you get an audibly different sound then it is going to be from the source device or DAC or the pre-amp modifying the sound in some way which it is not really meant to do (Tube pre-amp for example). We do often hear what we want to hear though but just be wary that more money spent on electronics does not make better quality sound much of the time. 99% is speaker, room and source. Amplifier power level can be important though if you don't have enough for your desired listening level.

 

[moves]

But some amps have a special HT Bypass input which you connect to to the pre-outs of your multi-channel surround pre-amp front left and right outputs.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to help me.

When you say "But some amps" above do you mean pre amp?

When you say "multi-channel surround pre-amp" do you mean AVR?

Is XDA-1 the pre-amp? Don't think so because the preamp doesn't have speaker inputs....
I am clearly confused.

 

[moves]

I found this post on the net:

"
Passthrough allows you to use the front left and right pre-outs on HT receiver to connect to the C50. In passthrough mode you are bypassing the C50 preamp section and the signal goes straight through to your amp connected to the C50. The HT receiver would then control the volume - as it is now the preamp.
"

AVR L and R preouts are connected to Mcintosh preamp and then the MC preamp is bypassed to let the Pioneer's preamp take over? This means HT processing as well?

Then, when listening to 2 channel music, I'll let the pre amp take over by not settingg the HT passthrough? Would there be a passthrough switch on the preamp? or it's probably programmable in the menu?

 

[Latent]

Once again, thanks for taking the time to help me.

When you say "But some amps" above do you mean pre amp?

When you say "multi-channel surround pre-amp" do you mean AVR?

Is XDA-1 the pre-amp? Don't think so because the preamp doesn't have speaker inputs.

I am clearly confused.

yeah sorry "But some PRE-amps" is what i should have said there. My mistake.


"multi-channel surround pre-amp" I was meaning any unit that could be a AVR(If it has pre-amp outputs) or it could be a what is normally called a Mulit-channel Pre-Pro or Pre-Processor. If you take and AVR and remove the internal Amplifier section then you have a Pre-Pro. And if you take a AVR that includes Pre-amp outputs and don't use the internal amplifiers then you have the equivalent of a Pre-Pro.

The XDA-1 is a emotiva pre-amp and it doesn't need speaker inputs as the inputs from the AVR unit would be RCA preouts and not speaker level.

AVR L and R preouts are connected to Mcintosh preamp and then the MC preamp is bypassed to let the Pioneer's preamp take over? This means HT processing as well?

Then, when listening to 2 channel music, I'll let the pre amp take over by not settingg the HT passthrough? Would there be a passthrough switch on the preamp? or it's probably programmable in the menu?

yes in bypass mode the pioneer pre-amp does all the work and the MC pre-amp just does nothing. It is just like the AVR is connected to the power amp and the MC pre-amp is not even there.

The C50 model works as follows. You select on of the RCA inputs you don't need and connect the FL/FR pre-out ports from the pioneer AVR to these with a stereo RCA cable. in the setup menu you set this input as the passthru input (read the manual for instructions). You then connect a 12V trigger cable from one of the trigger outputs on the pioneer AVR to the Pass Thru trigger input on the C50. You need to enable this trigger output in the pioneer to go to 12V when the AVR is powered on which is done in its advanced setup menu somewhere. Now When the AVR is powered on it triggers the C50 to go into passthru mode which basically shuts down this preamp and it will not do anything except pass the signal to the amp which is what you want. As soon as you power the AVR off with it's remote the 12V trigger line stops and the C50 will be usable again in stereo only mode.

I would guess that if the C50 is off and you turn the AVR on the 12V trigger will power the C50 on and put it into passthru mode so in the end of the day you just pick up the remote control you want to use (either AVR or C50) and use them like normal and it all just works. Just can't use them both at the same time as when the AVR is on it locks out the C50.

The only thing i'm not 100% sure on is how the 12V trigger you need to turn on the MC Amp you have works with this system. I hope that a simple trigger connection from the C50 to the amp would go high and turn on the amp if the AVR powers on and triggers the passthru mode so its all seamless and power on is just one button push away.

Before you rush out and buy a C50 I would make sure you will be happy with this 'upgrade'. Ideally you should get one in to trial first and connect say a computer via USB cable to the C50 to use its high end built in USB DAC (or the optical input if you prefer) and see if this sounds better to you than running the AVR in Pure Direct mode and using its built in DAC from an optical input. make sure you are using the same speakers and MC amp in both situations. If your happy there is a difference then it may be money well spent. If you can't tell the difference then I would return it and spend your money on better speakers instead. Demoing the C50 at a showroom would not be a good test as it will not be your amp or speakers so you could buy based on this and then be disappointed.

If you can't get a C50 in to demo at your home you could also get or borrow any high quality USB external DAC. There are 100's of great options out there for these and if you get one of these and connect it direct to your amp so you can see what having a clean pure 2 channel signal path sounds like then you will know if you want to go down this route.

 

[moves]

yeah sorry "But some PRE-amps" is what i should have said there. My mistake.


"multi-channel surround pre-amp" I was meaning any unit that could be a AVR(If it has pre-amp outputs) or it could be a what is normally called a Mulit-channel Pre-Pro or Pre-Processor. If you take and AVR and remove the internal Amplifier section then you have a Pre-Pro. And if you take a AVR that includes Pre-amp outputs and don't use the internal amplifiers then you have the equivalent of a Pre-Pro.

The XDA-1 is a emotiva pre-amp and it doesn't need speaker inputs as the inputs from the AVR unit would be RCA preouts and not speaker level.



yes in bypass mode the pioneer pre-amp does all the work and the MC pre-amp just does nothing. It is just like the AVR is connected to the power amp and the MC pre-amp is not even there.

The C50 model works as follows. You select on of the RCA inputs you don't need and connect the FL/FR pre-out ports from the pioneer AVR to these with a stereo RCA cable. in the setup menu you set this input as the passthru input (read the manual for instructions). You then connect a 12V trigger cable from one of the trigger outputs on the pioneer AVR to the Pass Thru trigger input on the C50. You need to enable this trigger output in the pioneer to go to 12V when the AVR is powered on which is done in its advanced setup menu somewhere. Now When the AVR is powered on it triggers the C50 to go into passthru mode which basically shuts down this preamp and it will not do anything except pass the signal to the amp which is what you want. As soon as you power the AVR off with it's remote the 12V trigger line stops and the C50 will be usable again in stereo only mode.

I would guess that if the C50 is off and you turn the AVR on the 12V trigger will power the C50 on and put it into passthru mode so in the end of the day you just pick up the remote control you want to use (either AVR or C50) and use them like normal and it all just works. Just can't use them both at the same time as when the AVR is on it locks out the C50.

The only thing i'm not 100% sure on is how the 12V trigger you need to turn on the MC Amp you have works with this system. I hope that a simple trigger connection from the C50 to the amp would go high and turn on the amp if the AVR powers on and triggers the passthru mode so its all seamless and power on is just one button push away.

Before you rush out and buy a C50 I would make sure you will be happy with this 'upgrade'. Ideally you should get one in to trial first and connect say a computer via USB cable to the C50 to use its high end built in USB DAC (or the optical input if you prefer) and see if this sounds better to you than running the AVR in Pure Direct mode and using its built in DAC from an optical input. make sure you are using the same speakers and MC amp in both situations. If your happy there is a difference then it may be money well spent. If you can't tell the difference then I would return it and spend your money on better speakers instead. Demoing the C50 at a showroom would not be a good test as it will not be your amp or speakers so you could buy based on this and then be disappointed.

If you can't get a C50 in to demo at your home you could also get or borrow any high quality USB external DAC. There are 100's of great options out there for these and if you get one of these and connect it direct to your amp so you can see what having a clean pure 2 channel signal path sounds like then you will know if you want to go down this route.

That's amazing thank you! So it sounds like that I can use my L and R main speakers for Stereo listening as well as HT viewing 7.2 by going through the HT passthrough.

I am completely aware that there may not be much change in sound but I am future proofing for when I end up getting 4 ohm speakers. At least I have the amp to run them. Also, I can keep this stuff forever as they are built like tanks (the Mc stuff). AND they look pretty cool I got some descent speakers, Totem Forest Mains and Tribe 5 centre. Eventually, I will upgrade. You know how it goes. When I do, it will be nice to have the mac gear to power the nicer higher end speakers than I currently have.

Thanks again for your assistance.

 

[KenM10759]

Nice speakers.

They deserve good amplification. Best of luck in sorting this.