Psb vs. Martin Logan

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feller21

Enthusiast
I need new fronts, and I need advise on whether to get PSB Image t65 or Martin Logan Preface. I use them mainly for music, some homr theater frmats. Any advise?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Out of those two, I would choose the PSBs based on what I've read up so far..

Based on this review, the MLs were trying to go on the cheap and got out of what they put into it.

http://www.snobreview.com/reviews/speakers/Martin_Logan_Preface/page1.html

That same reviewer really like the ML "The Source"


I own the smaller T45s from PSB and I really like them. The whole Image series can be characterized as being musical, ( I use my T45s in both HT and two channel music) and providing great dynamics for HT use. The T65s put out alot of bass so make sure you have room in you rlistening are to pull them away from the back and side walls. If not, they could sound boomy and over power the room.
 
F

feller21

Enthusiast
thanks

Yeah, I am leaning towards the PSB's cause I know what I'm getting. The Logans are reviewed by some as incredible but others say exactly what you have said. It is a dream to own Logans but I'm afraid I need to spend 3000 to get the real deal and I won't do that. I am also looking at NHT and Def Tech. Any other suggestions are welcome.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, I am leaning towards the PSB's cause I know what I'm getting. The Logans are reviewed by some as incredible but others say exactly what you have said. It is a dream to own Logans but I'm afraid I need to spend 3000 to get the real deal and I won't do that. I am also looking at NHT and Def Tech. Any other suggestions are welcome.
Boston Acoustics, Totem, Energy, Infinity (their 362) Poks.

All make solid speakers. Its finding the one that matches your expectations of what a good sounding speaker sounds like. Hearing is very subjective; what you may like in a sound others may hate and visa versa.

What I would do is to take a pad of paper with you, write down the make and
model of each speaker you audition and what you liked and disliked about the
speakers you were auditioning. Was the bass tight and deep or was it boomy
and loose sounding? Were the mids life like or were they hollow or just too
pronounced? Was the treble irritating and harsh or were they dark and not
revealing or were they smooththat made you want to listen for more? How was the imaging?

Bring music with you that you are very familiar with and know quite well. To
make it easier to audition HT speaker systems, listen to the main speakers in 2
channel mode with music. Music is much harder to reproduce accurately then a movie soundtrack so if the speakers do well with music, then they will do well with HT. Speakers that do HT well may not do well with music. When auditioning the center channel of the same brand and series as the main speakers, pick a difficult source like an announcer that mumbles alot. If you can understand what the mumbling announcer is saying, then you have a good center channel.

I would go to speciality stores first and start auditioning speakers first
instead of going to the internet first. Once your likes are determined, you can
mention them here and fellow members can make internet brand recommendations based on your likes/dislikes. The specality stores are better setup acousticaly then the big box stores which will make auditioning a little easier. It will give you an idea of what you like in a speaker.

Keep track of what amp or receiver is powering the speakers you're auditioning. Try to get a receiver/amp that closest resembles what you have or want to get. It just reduces another variable when audtioning speakers.


One thing to keep note off. When auditioning speakers, make sure the volume
levels are matched between the diiferent speaker pairs because the louder
speaker pair will always sound better. Listen to levels that you think you
would listen to most of the time because thats how you are going to be using
them most of the time.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
PSB is good - however, check some others out also. As the
M Logans go down in price - so does the sound quality. Try
to audition local first.
The Definitive towers will draw attention to your cat. The NHT
Absolute Zero towers will not go down very low. Look at the
NHT Classic Three shelf/stand speakers. Also at onecall.com
look at the Boston VR3 tower speakers. Go to the Polk Ebay
store and look at the Lsi15 speakers.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Just to get the info consolidated into one thread"
Sorry about having 2 posts, I'm new. my budget is 1000-1200. The models I'm looking at are Paradigm mon. 7, Def Tech studio mon 450 or BP8b(worried my cat will use as post),PSB Image t65 or t55, NHT absolute towers. I am running a Pioneer Elite vsx-90txv at 110/x7. I can't audition the NHT or the PSB but I've read good things. Again, sorry to all who r offended by my 2 posts! I guess I should have read the rules more carefully. Thanks
So you are looking for floorstanding speakers in the $1000 to 1200 range.
Aperion has a no risk trial:
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-5T-Tower-Speaker,107,90,248.aspx

I believe NHT does as well. There is nothing like having the speakers in your home for a week to really listen to them!

Edit - I believe both companies allow 30 days for the trial.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Addressing issues from other thread here, to consolidate threads.

Radiient was the lowest bidder when Best Buy wanted a pair of cheap bookshelf speakers to provide under the Insignia moniker. I'm not surprised a full size speaker from the company would be dissapointing. For the bookshelf speaker the cabinet was more fitting, but with the thickness they had, they should have used something more substantial for towers.

There's nothing you can do to fix the problems with the speakers other than to modify them, which is probably not an option but maybe something you could do if you have good wood working skills (I myself do not) and could figure out what needs modified and you're bored.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You can't audition the NHT, but can you audition the DefTech SM450s you mentioned?

The latest Home Theater Magazine reviewed the NHT Absolute Zero bookshelf speakers recently. I was very impressed based on the measurements: 200 Hz - 10 kHz +/- 0.9 dB (5 point Average On-Axis & +/- 15 degrees Off-Axis), and 85 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3dB.

If your room is the "regular size" and not the large 25ft x 30ft room, The Absolute Zero should be just fine when paired with a great Subwoofer like the Epik Empire or similar (or even the matching NHT subwoofer if your room is not huge).

The Audio Critic reviewed the DefTech SM450s a few years ago. They compared it to the much larger B&W 800 Matrix towers. Obviously, the bigger B&W 800 had better bass than the little DefTech SM450s. But in terms of midrange and treble, the SM450s were on par with the much more expensive and larger B&W 800 Matrix. I believe The Audio Critic measured the SM450 to be 60Hz - 20kHz +/- 3dB. I believe the -10dB bass level was 50Hz, with 90dB as reference @ 1 meter.

But I would look into the $600/pr Magnepan MMG + a Subwoofer if you have at least 2ft from the front walls and side walls to place the speakers. I think they recommend 3ft from walls.

I think you should at least listen to some dipole speakers like MartinLogan & the DefTech bipolar towers and compare them to the other traditional monopole speakers.

I prefer the sound of dipole/bipole speakers to monopole speakers. The reason is that I think the dipole speakers sound a lot more 3-dimensional compared to the monopole speakers.

I need to compare dipole/bipole vs. monopoles!
 
F

feller21

Enthusiast
Magnepan?

I've wondered about those Magnepans and adding maybe 2 medium subs. Have u heard the Magnepans MMg? I mostly listen to music and I'm sure I will have to upgrade my cd player with speakers like that no? I have an Elite 90txv that puts out 110/channel, is that a good range for the Magnepan? My room is 12' by15' and I'm wondering if u have any other suggestions as far as 1 or 2 subs and what wattage for 1 or 2 of them. I do have enough room to put speakers wherever they sound best. For 650$, it's not a bad risk to take especially with the reviews I've read. I listen to alternative, hard rock etc.. Avenged Sevenfold to RHCP's to The Beatles and Johnny Cash so I have to tailor my speakers to that type of music.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I've wondered about those Magnepans and adding maybe 2 medium subs. Have u heard the Magnepans MMg? I mostly listen to music and I'm sure I will have to upgrade my cd player with speakers like that no? I have an Elite 90txv that puts out 110/channel, is that a good range for the Magnepan? My room is 12' by15' and I'm wondering if u have any other suggestions as far as 1 or 2 subs and what wattage for 1 or 2 of them. I do have enough room to put speakers wherever they sound best. For 650$, it's not a bad risk to take especially with the reviews I've read. I listen to alternative, hard rock etc.. Avenged Sevenfold to RHCP's to The Beatles and Johnny Cash so I have to tailor my speakers to that type of music.
I listen to Alternative Rock, Pop, Classic Rock, & Classical music.

I have not listened to the Magnepan MMG yet, but I've heard great things.

I prefer bipole/dipole speakers over monopole speakers. The dipole/bipole speakers sound more life-like, realistic, and 3-dimensional to me than any monopole speakers I've ever heard, including the $23,000 B&W 800D.

I would not worry about your CD player. According to The Audio Critic, which many, many of us believe in, CD players, DACs, amps, pre-amps (direct mode), wires/cables all pretty much sound "the same" - double-blind tests have shown this.

The only exception would be defective components or amps not having enough power to drive the less than sensitive speakers in larger rooms (sensitivity < 90dB 1w/m, or lower ohms than 4 ohms). I think 110WPC is more than enough, especially for a 12' x 15' room.

I've listened to the MartinLogan Vantage (also dipole speakers), and I also liked them a lot.

My current speakers are bipole (DefTech BP7000SC).

I also have the monopole Infinity P362 in my family room. Although they sound very accurate and clear, my BRAIN just feels like something is "missing" after I've been listening to bipole speakers for several years now.

I will never go back to monopole speakers for my main listening speakers.:D

Thus, I recommend that you at least listen to both monopole and dipole/bipole speakers before buying.
 
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feller21

Enthusiast
Elite receiver

I want to address another issue if u don't mind. I think changing speakers is the 1st step, however. I'm not impressed with the sound from my receiver in stereo mode or any of the digital formats it has. I miss the sound of analog when listening to cd's. Is this a common complaint? I'm considering buying a cheap Technical Pro receiver/equalizer to hook up to 2 or 4 speakers just for cd listening. Is there anyway to get analog sound from an av receiver that overprocesses music. My bedroom set-up(old yamaha rx930 with a teac eq hooked up to the other set of Radiient towers sounds 20 times better than what I can get out of the Pioneer elite in my livingroom.) I know Technical Pro is cheap stuff but it looks cool with built in eq have you heard of them? Any other suggestions on how to get my cd performance back in my Livingroom set up? I don't want to drop 1000 on an amp unless it has specific control of the stereo sound parameters. Maybe there is another link or thread you have read that can help me with this issue? Or maybe I'm stuck with progress that to me is regression as far as cd sound q thru my receiver. I don't know if I can hook up a preamplifier and I know I can't hook up an eq. Thanks Much
Feller21
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Ok

I'm confused.... What speakers do you have hooked up to your Pioneer? I'm quite sure (not positive) that your Pioneer must have a direct mode too which passes limits the amount of signal travel trhough the digital side of the receiver. The other thing you many want to consider is speaker placement. Nothing in the auio chain affects sound more than speaker placement.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm not impressed with the sound from my receiver in stereo mode or any of the digital formats it has. I miss the sound of analog when listening to cd's.
You need to listen in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode only!!!

Stereo mode may apply some sort of DSP or Room EQ or Tone Control, etc.

Direct mode will bypass all digital processing - just like as if you were using ANALOG without the Tone Controls.

In Direct mode, pretty much all good $500 receivers will sound the same, assuming the amps are enough, which is usually the case with 110WPC in a 12' x 15' room.

At one time I had a $1,500 Pioneer Elite Pre-pro & a $500 Harman Kardon receiver. For some dumb reason, the Pioneer did NOT have a DIRECT mode!!!

The Pioneer only had Stereo Mode or one of the other DSP modes, which is retarded. So no matter what my settings were, I could not get DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode!

So I did a non-blinded, but SPL-volume matched comparison between the HK in DIRECT mode & the Pioneer Elite in Stereo mode.

The HK sound much clearer and uncompressed, while the Pioneer sounded more compressed.

So the take-home message is to use Direct or Pure Direct mode.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
AcuDefTechGuy

Thats a good reason for me not to purchase a Pioneer. If I can't bypass or minimize digital processing, then I'm not interested. With the Yamaha, I have that choice.
 
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feller21

Enthusiast
Elite

I'm quite certain I don't have that option. I will dig out the manual again but I 've tried for 3 years to get descent sound from this receiver in cd playback mode. I actually listen to my cd's in a mode called "advanced game" for the closest thing to undigitised music. The model # is Pioneer Elite Vsx-90txv. I have radiient towers as fronts on both my setups. My old Yamaha rxv-930 sounds way better with that teac eq I mentioned. I'm thinking of buying an alternate music source for cd listening since my speakers are biwirable. Also, gives me an excuse to sell my Elite and get an Integra or Yamaha or Outlaw or Emotiva. Only reason I bought the Elite to begin with is because my fiend worked for pioneer when the gave employees 60% off, I got that receiver for like 300$. And the Harman Kardon(AVR 647) I bought previously was junk, had to send it in 1 time and the second time it needed it I asked and received refund. Thanks to all for the support!!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, just make sure whatever you buy has that Direct Mode bypass.

I wouldn't touch anything with a 10-foot pole if it doesn't have a Direct Mode.:D
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Companies that offer pure direct mode in their home theater receivers include the following:

Yamaha
Denon
Onkyo
NAD
Marantz
 
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feller21

Enthusiast
Elite

Hey, thanks for doing that research for me. I've had good experience with Yamaha. Can't afford NAD, I will definitely find out if Integra has it before I buy! I never wanted a pioneer elite to begin with but the price was right and the reviews were good. That is one thing I would have never thought to ask about, never again will I make that mistake. I think I can get a cheap Technical Pro receiver(130$) that I can hook up to my cd player and biwirable speakers. It's a small investment and if I get burned it will only be 1st degree. I can't replace receivers right now and this is a temporary fix. When I upgrade I'll look at Integra, Yamaha, and Denon. Some other internet speakers that have caught my interest are Swan diva 4.2, ARX A3, and HomeTheaterDirect.com., and Jamo. Anybody heard any ot these? Good and bads please. Thx
Feller21
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Do not let the name Home Theater Direct fool you - their speakers
sound good for the price. They are built well and have worked hard
with their crossovers for the price.
Jamo on the higher end side is good - I have conerns about their
lower end stuff (build quality).
I can not speak for Swan speakers.
 

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