PSB Imagine T vs. B&W 683

[BuddyRich]

I've auditioned a few towers recently and I've got a bit of a dilemma.

Initially my short list included Totem Sttaf, the Paradigm Studio 60, PSB Image T6, PSB Imagine T and the B&W 683. Monitor Audio RX6/RX8 was also on the list but I couldn't find somewhere local to listen to them so they were cut.

The nice thing was I got to A/B/C The Imagine, the T6 and the 683 at the same dealer with the same receiver I have at home... (a Yamaha RX-V867
- it was bought for HT use - eventually I'l go separate components for music).

Initially I thought the Imagine T won the day, though I wasn't listening to my own music, the T6 just wasn't as tight (though it seemed to go just a bit lower) and the 683 had amazing clarity and imaging but it was a bit more of a laid back sound. The Totem and the Paradigm were at another store, and of those two I favoured the Totem. The Totems had a very warm sound, but there was something about them, it was totally psychological, but I just couldn't believe the sound coming from the smaller towers, so I ended up favouring the Imagine T out of them all that day of listening.

I sat on it a week, and decided to go back and demo the B&W and Imagine again, just to confirm and then likely to order the Imagines.

This time I brought my music. My tastes range from everything from jazz to blues to rock to metal, some electronica, some industrial, some classical. Pretty much everything but country and rap. However rock and metal still get played more than anything on my system.

I A/Bed the speakers and am at an impass. Jazz and female vocals sounded better on the Imagines but Rock and especially metal sounded better on the B&Ws.

The difference was the Imagines were much more forward, the B&W more laid back. The Imagines were accurate but a bit "bright" to my ears (the Iron Maiden and Metallica I brought were not happy on the Imagines - just listening to a song was painful but some people might just say its the music) Of the two the Imagines were more fatiguing to my ear for that type of music, the B&Ws were not fatiguing at all.

The fit and finish went to Imagines of course (wood veneer vs. vinyl) though neither looked bad to my eyes.

I am just wondering if this is normal. Do people have similar experience with Rock/Metal on the Imagines? I also need something good for HT and have the option of using a sub (a HSU VTF-2) though the upgrade is mainly for 2 channel music use.

 

[jinjuku]

If you can audition them in your home. Was the Yamaha in pure direct mode?

 

[BuddyRich]

Aye. I can, for up to a week.

I've ordered the 683s in Cherry finish and will throw everything I have at them at home. They should be coming in this Thursday.

The amp was in pure direct mode.

Its a shame. The PSB did Jazz exceptionally well (except the Sax - it sounded shrill).

It may just be an amp-speaker mismatch. The PSBs aren't supposed to be overly bright, but they are normally matched with a NAD receiver which is known to have a warmer sound. Yamaha OTOH is known to be bright... I dunno but I do know what I heard.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If they are in Direct mode & bypass all EQ, none of these amps will sound warm or bright or anything other than flat and neutral.

The only factors are the speakers + room acoustics + source.

Perhaps none of these speakers are the answer for you.

 

[DrFunk]

You will love your 683's, I know I do Once they've been used for a few days, they really shine.

 

[BuddyRich]

Really? Ive always heard amplifiers can color the sound.

Though as long as they are providing enough power to drive the speakers effectively it shouldn't matter.

 

[GranteedEV]

Really? Ive always heard amplifiers can color the sound.

POOR Amplifiers, and amplifiers driven outside their limitations, can color the sound. Else, not much they affect.

The difference was the Imagines were much more forward, the B&W more laid back. The Imagines were accurate but a bit "bright" to my ears (the Iron Maiden and Metallica I brought were not happy on the Imagines - just listening to a song was painful but some people might just say its the music) Of the two the Imagines were more fatiguing to my ear for that type of music, the B&Ws were not fatiguing at all.

What you were probably listening to, was probably very bright recordings. The PSBs are accurate speakers so if it's bright, they won't mask it. The B&Ws have some big dips near 2khz and 5khz:

That will mask what you hear.

Compare to the PSBs:

Which, as you noted, appear slightly forward near 2khz. If you want the accuracy of (and likely superior to) the PSBs, but with a more relaxed HF sound, i'd strongly consider the Philharmonics:

philharmonicaudio.com

 

[zieglj01]

Some of the recordings may be associated with the Loudness War game.
Also, some have complained about Metallica on Focal speakers. I will take
a accurate revealing speaker, over a laid back (frequency dip) one, any time.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Really? Ive always heard amplifiers can color the sound.

Though as long as they are providing enough power to drive the speakers effectively it shouldn't matter.

Truly really. Unless there is something "wrong" or EQ/ DSP is employed, amps do not color the sound - unless they are tube amps that don't have a flat frequency response.

Speakers are usually the ones that color the sound.

 

[BuddyRich]

Thanks GranteedEV.

Those graphs do tell the story.

The last 2 Metallica albums were horribly mixed. Volume just cranked up and details compressed, but I brought the DCC 24K Gold CD of Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning, which are noticeable quieter than their regular counter parts. The Iron Maiden CDs were the original CD transfers.

I also have a Rega P3 and the LPs to test at home so this should help. The shop I auditioned in unfortunately didn't have analogue gear, or I would have brought LPs to test as well.

As for accurate vs. one with dips... if the accurate one is fatiguing to my ear, I'll take the one with dips, if it means I can listen to the music I like for longer.

Based on the graphs alone, those Philharmonic speakers look fantastic, but shipping to Canada from the DC Area might be prohibitively expensive.

 

[3db]

The PSBs becuase of their falt frequency response won't mask bad recordings like some other speakers would do becuase of dips in teh mid and higher frequency points. Its a matter of personal choice at this point whether you can live with a more accurate speaker.

 

[GranteedEV]

As for accurate vs. one with dips... if the accurate one is fatiguing to my ear, I'll take the one with dips, if it means I can listen to the music I like for longer.

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with a good set of speakers, and then use tone controls for difficult recordings, that to start with a poor set of speakers for any and all recordings?

As for shipping, I would at least inquire.

 

[BuddyRich]

Yes it would. Never thought of EQing the harsher frequencies down a bit.

 

[PENG]

Yes it would. Never thought of EQing the harsher frequencies down a bit.

I agree with Grant, it is better to eq a more accurate speaker to your liking instead of relying on less accuate ones to suit your taste. I also like the fact that those Canadian speakers such as PSB, Paradigm, Totem, Energy all have taken advantage of using the NRC for their R&D.

 

[GranteedEV]

Yes it would. Never thought of EQing the harsher frequencies down a bit.

Remember, 85% of content out there sounds its best on the same kind of speakers it was mixed on. Most of the time this implies a speaker with a smooth, tapering power response and a flat frequency response.

For that other 15%, get out the graphic EQ on your receiver and throw in some BBC dip - 2-2.5db near 800hz-4khz roughly.

For myself, those B&Ws simply wouldn't qualify for an audition, never mind my hard-earned money. A speaker is a reproduction tool that needs to be true to the source. If the source is a problem, then you need a band-aid (like EQ), not to stop the bleeding with the speaker.

One other thing, is that better speakers sound more "correct" at higher volumes. If a speaker sounds enticing at low volumes, chances are it will fall apart when you turn up the volume.

Personally, I don't like that broad peak near 2khz for the PSB either... while it's certainly more accurate, the fact is that any broad peaking in the region where our ears are most sensitive (200khz to 8khz) is undesirable because of how easily we pick it apart...in that sense it could be argued that a shallow, 1db dip is preferable over a 1db peak, but not a 3db dip like with the B&Ws. I also feel that peaking in the bass (50hz to 200hz) is undesirable in its own way.

In this case the PSB would qualify for an audition unlike the B&W, but I do feel like there's other speakers at the price point, from companies like Revel, Ascend, Salk, Aperion, JTR, Soundfield Audio, and Philharmonic, that i'd be more inclined towards.

 

[zieglj01]

This is another take on the Imagine T, and some measurements
PSB Imagine T Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics

 

[ObsceneJesster]

Funny you brought these speakers up. I listened to both of them about 3 weeks ago in a high end audio store called Gramaphone. They have multiple rooms set up very nicely. Once you look at the way they have them set up, you know for a fact you are auditioning speakers in the right place. Not some Magnolia Theater dump.

Anyway, I thought the PSB's sounded much better than the B&W's. When it came to female voices, the PSB's were on a whole different level. I actually thought the 683's sounded boring.

 

[timoteo]

Welcome!!

I own the 683s & have had them for about 3 years. Ive had them hooked up to different receivers & amplifiers over these years. I have been demoing speakers at stores & friends houses including my own. Throughout all these times, ive always enjoyed coming home to my system. In my opinion, my money was very well spent because ive never regretted my buy.

Are there more "accurate" speakers out there? ABSOLUTELY!!
Can you get "better" speakers for the money? MOST LIKELY!!!
Will those speakers be "better" for you?......?

There are many on this forum who do not like B&W speakers. They will steer you away from them because they either dont care for their sound, because they dont like the way the measure or both. Please take their oppinions with a grain of salt.

If YOU can set & listen, in your home, with your music & enjoy the sound for long periods of time.........that is the ultimate goal & nobody can tell you otherwise!!!

Am i trying to convince you to keep the 683s because i enjoy them? No way!!

These same guys that are giving you advice are the same guys i ask questions to & the same guys that i respect when considering my choices. They know a lot & in the technical & measured aspects of gear they know more than me. What i do know & they will agree is that you need to take all you learn here, pair it up with your personal listening experiences & make a decision for YOU!

If i were to sell my B&Ws to upgrade, id be looking into Salk or Philharmonics.

I hope you are enjoying this time figuring out what to purchase. It can be frustrating & confusing but also enlightening because you are in a great stage of figuring out what sound you love. Once you make a final decision please just set back, enjoy them & dont worry if you made the "right" buy. That can ruin the experience & if your enjoying them....do just that! ENJOY!!

 

[3db]

For myself, those B&Ws simply wouldn't qualify for an audition, never mind my hard-earned money. A speaker is a reproduction tool that needs to be true to the source. If the source is a problem, then you need a band-aid (like EQ), not to stop the bleeding with the speaker.


Personally, I don't like that broad peak near 2khz for the PSB either... while it's certainly more accurate, the fact is that any broad peaking in the region where our ears are most sensitive (200khz to 8khz) is undesirable because of how easily we pick it apart...in that sense it could be argued that a shallow, 1db dip is preferable over a 1db peak, but not a 3db dip like with the B&Ws. I also feel that peaking in the bass (50hz to 200hz) is undesirable in its own way.

In this case the PSB would qualify for an audition unlike the B&W, but I do feel like there's other speakers at the price point, from companies like Revel, Ascend, Salk, Aperion, JTR, Soundfield Audio, and Philharmonic, that i'd be more inclined towards.

The speakers you mention are no more/less accurate than the PSBs save the Phils. I haven't seen a curve that flat bar none from any other speaker manufacturer.

 

[zieglj01]

The speakers you mention are no more/less accurate than the PSBs save the Phils. I haven't seen a curve that flat bar none from any other speaker manufacturer.

With proper recorded material - I have not owned, or listened to a bright
PSB speaker yet. It is hard to fault the measurements, of the Imagine T