PSA S3611 or SVS PB16

[ryanosaur]

Ever since Shady posted the Axpona Subwoofer Roundup, I've been fantasizing about that Ultra-Top-Secret Hsu.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yes, all sealed (is there even a dual-opposed ported design out there?). Didn't want the box size of the ported nor the extra build complexity. With enough of them (and amps to go with) no problem for the low stuff.

Krikey, the output from that many 18s has gotta be a proper home-quake! We'll have to trade visits sometime! I'll have the '3s in about 2 more weeks. *fingerscrossed
But I won't have that many matched subs for a hot... hour?!?? Promise, I'll bring plenty of beer!

 

[lovinthehd]

Krikey, the output from that many 18s has gotta be a proper home-quake! We'll have to trade visits sometime! I'll have the '3s in about 2 more weeks. *fingerscrossed
But I won't have that many matched subs for a hot... hour?!?? Promise, I'll bring plenty of beer!

I'll cook!

 

[lovinthehd]

I'll cook!

ps Too bad I couldn't meet up with ya when I was in your 'hood! Next time you'll have the full setup, tho....

 

[shadyJ]

Ever since Shady posted the Axpona Subwoofer Roundup, I've been fantasizing about that Ultra-Top-Secret Hsu.

Don't hold your breath for that one, it won't be available until late this year. You can achieve its performance with two ULS-15 mks, but that dual 15 will probably be priced less than two ULS-15s (don't ask me how much less, pricing is not set). Needless to say, I am really looking forward to seeing what that dual 15" can do!

 

[ryanosaur]

ps Too bad I couldn't meet up with ya when I was in your 'hood! Next time you'll have the full setup, tho....

I just figured that's what you were waiting for!

 

[kini]

If you wanted to look at it in terms of numbers, you could buy three Hsu VTF-3 mk5s for just a hair under $2600 and that would smash the FV25HP at almost every frequency except maybe below 16 Hz. And three 85 lbs subs would soooo much easier to deal with than a single 210 lbs sub.

Then where do you do from there? OP said he would be considering a second one of whatever was purchased. A pair of FV25s would be better than 4 HSUs. They take up about the same floor space as the VTH3.5. I haven't heard either one but my bet would be that the Rythmik is the cleaner better sounding sub with much less chance of having audible port noise when driven hard.

The HSU is a really good sub but there are reasons why it costs what it does.

 

[shadyJ]

Then where do you do from there? OP said he would be considering a second one of whatever was purchased. A pair of FV25s would be better than 4 HSUs. They take up about the same floor space as the VTH3.5. I haven't heard either one but my bet would be that the Rythmik is the cleaner better sounding sub with much less chance of having audible port noise when driven hard.

The HSU is a really good sub but there are reasons why it costs what it does.

Well it isn't exactly a fair fight to compare 3 VTF-3s against a single FV25, and the reason is enclosure space. Three VTF-3s have a lot more enclosure space, and that gives it an advantage in efficiency.

As for port turbulence, by the numbers, I would guess a triple Hsu system would have a pretty significant advantage. The reason is that the VTF-3s have a 4" diameter port along with a 3.5", but the FV25HP has 3.5" diameter ports, and the FV25HP port takes a 90 degree bend within the cabinet. The FV25HP is going for much deeper tuning frequencies. I don't know if the VTF-3 port has a bend, but I do know that Dr. Hsu holds a patent for flaring a port bend to reduce port turbulence.

As for a limit of two subs, you could always glue three VTF-3s together in a stack and call that a single sub! But seriously what I would like to see is a subwoofer design that is modular so you could stack them neatly, like a bunch of sealed 15"s. That way you could have a monster sub that would be easy to move around because you could just take it apart. It wouldn't eat up a lot of floor space either. I think a great sub to do this with if you laid it on its side is the sealed Monolith 15" sub.

 

[ryanosaur]

As for a limit of two subs, you could always glue three VTF-3s together in a stack and call that a single sub! But seriously what I would like to see is a subwoofer design that is modular so you could stack them neatly, like a bunch of sealed 15"s. That way you could have a monster sub that would be easy to move around because you could just take it apart. It wouldn't eat up a lot of floor space either. I think a great sub to do this with if you laid it on its side is the sealed Monolith 15" sub.

I am reminded of this: http://www.bossobass.com/Bossobass.com/BB, In Depth 3.html
scroll down to question 5.

 

[Dirty Beret]

Okay, at this time, I already have 4 subwoofers in the room. Two Cerwin Vega Sub-120s, and two Infinity SM 255 with MTX 15 sub powered by a Hafler amplifier. I've researched the chart and found subs that were monstrous. What I'd like to do is not to get into a sub that can potentially generate port noise. Which eliminates the SVS PB16. I just heard them today at Listen Up. I had them play the beginning intro of "Edge.of Tomorrow". You can feel the bass shake your insides. But you hear a lot of port noise. I really like the JTR 4000ul but I'm afraid that would sound similar, the space, and the wife factor would effect that purchase. Hell, I'd need a bigger, reinforced house. Also I think Hsu VTF-3 MK5S are awesome. However the fq response was 18 Hz Ported, 22 Hz Ported or Sealed. And I'm looking for a subwoofer that can operate below 10Hz. The design on my Infinitys were for the 15' subs that came with it. I blew those 21 years ago and put MTX subwoofers in their place. They handle 700w RMS per channel and operate below 16Hz.The enclosure and ports were not designed for them. So the port noise created at high volumes is ridiculous. That's why the PSA S3611 caught my attention. It responded lower the the SVS PB16 when measured using the REW software. It's a dual opposed sealed subwoofer that can reproduce 10Hz at 105db and the SVS PB16 reproduced 10Hz at 85db. Not saying the PB16 is a slouch, it sounded great. But I'm looking for more tactile low frequencies. And 105db at 10Hz, at the price point of $2K.

 

[shadyJ]

Okay, at this time, I already have 4 subwoofers in the room. Two Cerwin Vega Sub-120s, and two Infinity SM 255 with MTX 15 sub powered by a Hafler amplifier. I've researched the chart and found subs that were monstrous. What I'd like to do is not to get into a sub that can potentially generate port noise. Which eliminates the SVS PB16. I just heard them today at Listen Up. I had them play the beginning intro of "Edge.of Tomorrow". You can feel the bass shake your insides. But you hear a lot of port noise. I really like the JTR 4000ul but I'm afraid that would sound similar, the space, and the wife factor would effect that purchase. Hell, I'd need a bigger, reinforced house. Also I think Hsu VTF-3 MK5S are awesome. However the fq response was 18 Hz Ported, 22 Hz Ported or Sealed. And I'm looking for a subwoofer that can operate below 10Hz. The design on my Infinitys were for the 15' subs that came with it. I blew those 21 years ago and put MTX subwoofers in their place. They handle 700w RMS per channel and operate below 16Hz.The enclosure and ports were not designed for them. So the port noise created at high volumes is ridiculous. That's why the PSA S3611 caught my attention. It responded lower the the SVS PB16 when measured using the REW software. It's a dual opposed sealed subwoofer that can reproduce 10Hz at 105db and the SVS PB16 reproduced 10Hz at 85db. Not saying the PB16 is a slouch, it sounded great. But I'm looking for more tactile low frequencies. And 105db at 10Hz, at the price point of $2K.

A couple things. 10 Hz isn't really going to blow you away as a tactile sensation. It is more of a subtle effect. And there is very little content that actually has stuff in that frequency range. It's basically a handful of movies. And while the S3611 may be able to generate 10 Hz at 100+ dB, there is still the question of its audibility or sensibility. You need a huge amount of displacement for some really tangible infrasonic bass, I would guess more than a couple of 18"s with not tremendous excursion. The threshold for sensing 10 Hz is 100 dB, and that is under laboratory conditions. Furthermore, you are wary of port noise, I get that, but a sealed system, when pushed hard, will generate a lot of distortion. And asking those two 18"s to produce 10 Hz at 100 dB is pushing them very hard. A Captivator 4000 will generate far more clean 10 Hz output than the S3611. If you push it hard enough, yes, it may generate port turbulence, but the S3611 is going to be much more limited at 10 Hz, and would produce so much distortion that its 10 Hz output would be totally swamped by distortion much sooner than the Captivator 4000 would run into chuffing. I would guess that the Captivator 4000 would have three to four times as much clean 10 Hz output then the S3611. It would be a lot more efficient in that range as well in terms of power usage.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also, if you are playing something with 10hz content at 105db, EVERYTHING else, including the soundtrack and room should be making much more noise than the little bit of chuffing you’d hear. IMO, if the cap is on your list, lose the CV’s and other car stuff and get two caps. Don’t look back.

 

[Dirty Beret]

A couple things. 10 Hz isn't really going to blow you away as a tactile sensation. It is more of a subtle effect. And there is very little content that actually has stuff in that frequency range. It's basically a handful of movies. And while the S3611 may be able to generate 10 Hz at 100+ dB, there is still the question of its audibility or sensibility. You need a huge amount of displacement for some really tangible infrasonic bass, I would guess more than a couple of 18"s with not tremendous excursion. The threshold for sensing 10 Hz is 100 dB, and that is under laboratory conditions. Furthermore, you are wary of port noise, I get that, but a sealed system, when pushed hard, will generate a lot of distortion. And asking those two 18"s to produce 10 Hz at 100 dB is pushing them very hard. A Captivator 4000 will generate far more clean 10 Hz output than the S3611. If you push it hard enough, yes, it may generate port turbulence, but the S3611 is going to be much more limited at 10 Hz, and would produce so much distortion that its 10 Hz output would be totally swamped by distortion much sooner than the Captivator 4000 would run into chuffing. I would guess that the Captivator 4000 would have three to four times as much clean 10 Hz output then the S3611. It would be a lot more efficient in that range as well in terms of power usage.

 

[lovinthehd]

Chasing significant output at 10hz is just one of those things that has little practical benefit, and takes quite a bit of subwoofage (more than you've talked about), not that much content out there that has such either. Just what do you want to play 10hz at significant levels? Just the intro to Edge of Tomorrow? Maybe with several 3611s depending on your room size , btw what is your room size?

 

[Dirty Beret]

I agree that the JTR 4000ulf probably would sound better, however I am married. And a speaker box of that size playing 4000w rms at 10Hz probably wouldn't go over so well. Trust me, if I had a normal theater room to accommodate two of them. I'd do it. I'd be patient and buy one at a time. LOL

My room is not a theater room, it's a multimedia area. It's 50x20. Quite large... I have a 9ft pool table, air hockey table, and foosball table in the area. We watch movies on our 144 inch drop down Slate Screen, and play video games and perform calibrations on our 80 inch television.

I've heard what the SVS PB16 sounds like. It's sounds really good in my opinion. However, just like the JTR 4000ulf, it's too big. And after reviewing the chart, I did find better subwoofers than the PB16 and S3611. But the price point was a lot higher.

The S3611 is a dual sealed subwoofer that did not operate like a sealed enclosure. It just sounded a lot deeper and fuller than the SVS SB16. But has a lower extension than the SVS PB16. At certain frequencies, the PB16 was louder by the way, but most importantly, the S3611 is within my price point and fits in the targeted area most efficient for bass. Lastly It didn't bottom out like most sealed enclosures do and high volumes.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Chasing significant output at 10hz is just one of those things that has little practical benefit, and takes quite a bit of subwoofage (more than you've talked about), not that much content out there that has such either. Just what do you want to play 10hz at significant levels? Just the intro to Edge of Tomorrow? Maybe with several 3611s depending on your room size , btw what is your room size?

You said practical? In Audioholics forums...what is wrong with you?

 

[lovinthehd]

I agree that the JTR 4000ulf probably would sound better, however I am married. And a speaker box of that size playing 4000w rms at 10Hz probably wouldn't go over so well. Trust me, if I had a normal theater room to accommodate two of them. I'd do it. I'd be patient and buy one at a time. LOL

My room is not a theater room, it's a multimedia area. It's 50x20. Quite large... I have a 9ft pool table, air hockey table, and foosball table in the area. We watch movies on our 144 inch drop down Slate Screen, and play video games and perform calibrations on our 80 inch television.

I've heard what the SVS PB16 sounds like. It's sounds really good in my opinion. However, just like the JTR 4000ulf, it's too big. And after reviewing the chart, I did find better subwoofers than the PB16 and S3611. But the price point was a lot higher.

The S3611 is a dual sealed subwoofer that did not operate like a sealed enclosure. It just sounded a lot deeper and fuller than the SVS SB16. But has a lower extension than the SVS PB16. At certain frequencies, the PB16 was louder by the way, but most importantly, the S3611 is within my price point and fits in the targeted area most efficient for bass. Lastly It didn't bottom out like most sealed enclosures do and high volumes.

That's a huge room (assuming 8ft ceilings that's 8000 cuft !) to pressurize, you'd need a lot more subwoofage IMO for your goals. Might want to read this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size. Curious, how did you audition the 3611 and PB16, same room/setup? Has PSA now made some of their subs available in a B&M store? It is a sealed sub and does operate like one so not sure what you mean by that comment. The 3611 has significant eq boost down low built into the amp I'd think.

If a room that size can't accommodate a few large subs....

 

[Dirty Beret]

As you see, I don't buy new subwoofers often. This is why I'm picky. I have 4 subwoofers that are more than 20 years old, and they serve their purpose well. But when I heard the SVS PB16, it was time to reevaluate my subs.

 

[Dirty Beret]

That's a huge room (assuming 8ft ceilings that's 8000 cuft !) to pressurize, you'd need a lot more subwoofage IMO for your goals. Might want to read this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size. Curious, how did you audition the 3611 and PB16, same room/setup? Has PSA now made some of their subs available in a B&M store? It is a sealed sub and does operate like one so not sure what you mean by that comment. The 3611 has significant eq boost down low built into the amp I'd think.

If a room that size can't accommodate a few large subs....

 

[ryanosaur]

It occurs to me, also, that you need a SIGNIFICANTLY large room to really take advantage of any good infrasonic output. Of course, concert halls and Cathedrals have that in spades. But most of our listening rooms???
If my understanding, and math is correct-ish, 10Hz is ~113' long wavelength. By half-wave theory, you need a 60' long room to avoid the modes that will be introduced when that wave doubles back on itself and reaches its source. I know my room is far from optimal to chase the low c on a grand organ... ~16Hz. Sure I can feel sh!t rattle, but, its a folly. I get it. (That's for you Shady! ) And to reproduce that in a room large enough to handle the wavelength, you are talking over 180,000'3! I don't know if 4 Orbit-Shifters can even pressurize that space! And if they could, you might rupture something!!!

That said, or, reality dealt with...
If you want to pursue anything that low, go for it! Physics is a bitch though, and I don't think that particular PSA will do what you want as easily as you hope. This. This. This. And the Captivator 4000ULF, of course. And probably in multiples. It might be easier and cheaper to start DIYing it!