PS3 Cell Processor and games that use it

[Seth=L]

This is really starting to bother me, I can't seem to find any publications regarding the use of the cell processor with games. I have yet to see any publication that mentions using the cell processor other than MGS4. I also heard from someone that Uncharted uses the cell processor. From my understanding most games on the PS3 use only use one maybe two cells to handle the games.

My hope is that someone can come along and clear things up about which games do and don't use the cell processor.

 

[MinusTheBear]

This is really starting to bother me, I can't seem to find any publications regarding the use of the cell processor with games. I have yet to see any publication that mentions using the cell processor other than MGS4. I also heard from someone that Uncharted uses the cell processor. From my understanding most games on the PS3 use only use one maybe two cells to handle the games.

My hope is that someone can come along and clear things up about which games do and don't use the cell processor.

One port that uses the cell processor is Elder Scrolls Oblivion. This game was released around a year later from the xbox version. The use of the cell with this game resulted in sharper textures and better load times.

 

[Seth=L]

Is there a list of games somewhere that show which used what? Sorta like Blu-ray titles and their compression codecs.

 

[abboudc]

I'm not sure I understand the question. That's like asking "which games use the CPU?".

The cell is a multicore cpu. Do all the games use all the cores? Probably not. Even the ones that do may use it in an ineffective manner. You can have a game use all the available cores, run at 80% cpu and the game can still look like crap.

There are two reasons you probably see only two or three cores being utilized are many games are multiplatform and the 360 only has 3 cores. The other is Sony's compiler not being optimized.

One thing to keep in mind is that utilizing 8 cores means you have 8 tasks that can be done in parallel. They can be separate items (i.e. graphics vs. sound) or the same item that has 8 steps. If it's the same item, there's an "overhead"...you have to wait each task to be complete before advancing, so you don't get any extra performance, it's actually worse because of the "cross-talk". Thus an 8 core cpu isn't 8x the power, unless all your tasks are parallel.

You see the same thing on the PC side...Photoshop benefited immensely from the extra cores, many other programs saw no benefit at all...

 

[MinusTheBear]

I'm not sure I understand the question. That's like asking "which games use the CPU?".

The cell is a multicore cpu. Do all the games use all the cores? Probably not. Even the ones that do may use it in an ineffective manner. You can have a game use all the available cores, run at 80% cpu and the game can still look like crap.

There are two reasons you probably see only two or three cores being utilized are many games are multiplatform and the 360 only has 3 cores. The other is Sony's compiler not being optimized.

One thing to keep in mind is that utilizing 8 cores means you have 8 tasks that can be done in parallel. They can be separate items (i.e. graphics vs. sound) or the same item that has 8 steps. If it's the same item, there's an "overhead"...you have to wait each task to be complete before advancing, so you don't get any extra performance, it's actually worse because of the "cross-talk". Thus an 8 core cpu isn't 8x the power, unless all your tasks are parallel.

You see the same thing on the PC side...Photoshop benefited immensely from the extra cores, many other programs saw no benefit at all...

What are you thoughts on the cell for gaming. From what I read the ps3 cpu is superior to the xbox 360 cpu however the 360 gpu is superior to the ps3 gpu. My question how does the gpu and cpu affect developers programming abilities and can the gpu handicapp the abilities of the cpu? Some of the articles I was reading I had a hard time understanding all the technical stuff so I was wondering if you can explain this to me in a more simple fasion.

 

[abboudc]

What are you thoughts on the cell for gaming. From what I read the ps3 cpu is superior to the xbox 360 cpu however the 360 gpu is superior to the ps3 gpu. My question how does the gpu and cpu affect developers programming abilities and can the gpu handicapp the abilities of the cpu? Some of the articles I was reading I had a hard time understanding all the technical stuff so I was wondering if you can explain this to me in a more simple fasion.

There's little doubt the PS3 is a more powerful piece of hardware than a 360. There are three problems for sony currently:
1. You need to program at a pretty low level to tap this power
2. 360 has a larger installed base, so many games are programmed for it and ported to PS3 (see Bioshock, any EA game)
3. Even if the 360 didn't have a larger installed base, models would be built so they run well on 360 (code reuse).

As far as cpu vs. gpu, etc, the two systems just have different tradeoffs. Think of like a car...a Porsche 911 is really good at acceleration vs. another car that may accelerate more slowly, but have a higher top speed.

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding -- most games look the same on the two platforms. There are the occasional exception -- Uncharted, MGS4, but for the most part there's not a huge visual difference, despite an advantage in "horsepower".

This should change over time as developers tweak their tools and Sony comes out with more first-party games.

 

[MinusTheBear]

There's little doubt the PS3 is a more powerful piece of hardware than a 360. There are three problems for sony currently:
1. You need to program at a pretty low level to tap this power
2. 360 has a larger installed base, so many games are programmed for it and ported to PS3 (see Bioshock, any EA game)
3. Even if the 360 didn't have a larger installed base, models would be built so they run well on 360 (code reuse).

As far as cpu vs. gpu, etc, the two systems just have different tradeoffs. Think of like a car...a Porsche 911 is really good at acceleration vs. another car that may accelerate more slowly, but have a higher top speed.

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding -- most games look the same on the two platforms. There are the occasional exception -- Uncharted, MGS4, but for the most part there's not a huge visual difference, despite an advantage in "horsepower".

This should change over time as developers tweak their tools and Sony comes out with more first-party games.

I do not think there will be drastic differences this generation. You might see it in a few years time. I dont think developers will really tap into the full potential of Blu-ray and the types of more complex cpu's for console gaming till the next conosle machines comes out. I think by 2010 the kinks will be worked out and there will be significant advances.

 

[GlocksRock]

I do not think there will be drastic differences this generation. You might see it in a few years time. I dont think developers will really tap into the full potential of Blu-ray and the types of more complex cpu's for console gaming till the next conosle machines comes out. I think by 2010 the kinks will be worked out and there will be significant advances.

This is most likely the reason that Sony claims the PS3 will have about a 10 year life expectancy. They know that the console has enough power to stay around for a very long time, and that it will take the developers quite some time to really learn how to tap the potential that is already there.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Is there a list of games somewhere that show which used what? Sorta like Blu-ray titles and their compression codecs.

I do not think there is any list available. Other games which might utilze the cell processor is Motorstorm. The new final fantasy that is coming out will take advantage of the cell. Some of the articles I have read about is that Uncharted utilizes about 30% of its potential.

 

[WmAx]

I do not think there is any list available. Other games which might utilze the cell processor is Motorstorm. The new final fantasy that is coming out will take advantage of the cell. Some of the articles I have read about is that Uncharted utilizes about 30% of its potential.

Obviously, if true about the amount of CELL used, then the producer of Uncharted has some degree of mastery in using the CELL. MGS4 is supposedly using basically all the power the CELL has to use, but MSG4 is inferior in environmental and character detail(far less polygons used, and no where near the advanced use of dynamic texturing).

-Chris

 

[MinusTheBear]

Obviously, if true about the amount of CELL used, then the producer of Uncharted has some degree of mastery in using the CELL. MGS4 is supposedly using basically all the power the CELL has to use, but MSG4 is inferior in environmental and character detail(far less polygons used, and no where near the advanced use of dynamic texturing).

-Chris

Kojima did say that.

http://kotaku.com/381412/kojima-disappointed-with-metal-gear-solid-4

....interesting

Here is a question that was asked to a developer of drakes fortune.


Playstation360: Christophe - I read that Uncharted only uses about 30% of the cell and that you guys used some innovation to lighten the load on the RSX. Did you guys run into any difficulties developing with the way RAM is set up on the PS3 (like other developers have claimed.)?
Christophe_Balestra: We're using 30% of the SPU's. We use the SPU's for a lot of things and one of them is mesh processing which reduces the amount of data we send to the RSX. We had no problem with the way the memory is set up on PS3.

What do you guys make of this??

 

[WmAx]

Kojima did say that.

http://kotaku.com/381412/kojima-disappointed-with-metal-gear-solid-4

....interesting

Here is a question that was asked to a developer of drakes fortune.


Playstation360: Christophe - I read that Uncharted only uses about 30% of the cell and that you guys used some innovation to lighten the load on the RSX. Did you guys run into any difficulties developing with the way RAM is set up on the PS3 (like other developers have claimed.)?
Christophe_Balestra: We're using 30% of the SPU's. We use the SPU's for a lot of things and one of them is mesh processing which reduces the amount of data we send to the RSX. We had no problem with the way the memory is set up on PS3.

What do you guys make of this??

Do you have Uncharted? It's texture mapping and simply raw polygon rendering in the mid to later levels is substantially beyond any other game I have seen - and this includes the highly touted Crysis on PC. The only flaw in Uncharted I can see that affects visuals heavily is the developer's choice to use non-realistic skin textures - they instead went for an 'illustrated' type look in the skin instead of using realistic looking skins.

So why is MGS4 no comparison when compared to Uncharted? I suppose Konami simply has not mastered use of the PS3?

-Chris

 

[MinusTheBear]

Do you have Uncharted? It's texture mapping and simply raw polygon rendering in the mid to later levels is substantially beyond any other game I have seen - and this includes the highly touted Crysis on PC. The only flaw in Uncharted I can see that affects visuals heavily is the developer's choice to use non-realistic skin textures - they instead went for an 'illustrated' type look in the skin instead of using realistic looking skins.

So why is MGS4 no comparison when compared to Uncharted? I suppose Konami simply has not mastered use of the PS3?

-Chris

From that article I posted, it seems Kojima and its developers faced alot of roadblocks with the cell. From an interview I read with the developers for uncharted they seemed quite confident in their abilities.

 

[abboudc]

This is most likely the reason that Sony claims the PS3 will have about a 10 year life expectancy. They know that the console has enough power to stay around for a very long time, and that it will take the developers quite some time to really learn how to tap the potential that is already there.

They're saying this based on the PS1 and PS2, which both have a 10-year cycle -- PS2 came out in 2000 and there are still games made for it.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is...10 years in computer time is a 5 fold increase in power. The PS3 will look like the PS2 does now...

 

[GlocksRock]

I hope so... because I want to see what the future holds for gaming, how much better can can the graphics really get?

 

[Grimfate126]

I hope so... because I want to see what the future holds for gaming, how much better can can the graphics really get?

one of the things i would like to see get a whole lot better is trees. obviously, trees in games like MGS4 and burnoutaradise are very good, but still wayyy far off from being real. most are just collections of textured planes.(being a hobbyist programmer, i can understand why, since it is the best trade off between looks and polygon count). i would love to see actual branches being modeled, and have 1 plane/quad per leaf. this is, obviously, a huge task, but should easily be doable within 5-10 years.

if nothing else, they can always push up the poly count (until it makes no difference to the human eye, but we're still far from that.) id say we need 2 more generations of consoles to get there.

And then, theres always VR

 

[gus6464]

Do you have Uncharted? It's texture mapping and simply raw polygon rendering in the mid to later levels is substantially beyond any other game I have seen - and this includes the highly touted Crysis on PC. The only flaw in Uncharted I can see that affects visuals heavily is the developer's choice to use non-realistic skin textures - they instead went for an 'illustrated' type look in the skin instead of using realistic looking skins.

So why is MGS4 no comparison when compared to Uncharted? I suppose Konami simply has not mastered use of the PS3?

-Chris

MGS4 character models are a lot more detailed than Uncharted. In the faces alone you can see a higher polygon count. Also Uncharted uses a mix of pre-rendered and real time in their backgrounds unlike MGS4 which has everything fully rendered in real-time. You can easily tell the difference in detail with small things like leaves and grass. The reason Uncharted looks better at certain times is because of it's lighting which is a lot more dynamic than MGS4.

Also Uncharted in action heavy sequences suffers from some slowdown in framerate whereas MGS4 runs at 60fps smoothly the entire time. While it may seem like I am knocking Uncharted I am just trying to show that it is not the end all be all. While it is a superb looking game and it does some things better than MGS4, it is not more advanced technically in terms of the whole package.

Also you have not seen Crysis until you turn on HDR and 16x AA. I am sorry but no game out even remotely comes close with that level of detail.

 

[Seth=L]

Gus, it seems like you know your stuff pretty well. Do you think there will be a large difference between the Far Cry 2 release on PS3 and XBOX 360?

 

[davo]

They're saying this based on the PS1 and PS2, which both have a 10-year cycle -- PS2 came out in 2000 and there are still games made for it.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is...10 years in computer time is a 5 fold increase in power. The PS3 will look like the PS2 does now...

You also need a 5 fold increase in programming time to create games that will use this power. Where is that magically going to come from? Unless you can wait 4-5 years for any games to come out.
From a business model pov, that's like having a Ferrari with pizza cutting tyres on it. You will almost never be able to utilize all that power, so why spend the money going over board with the power?

 

[gus6464]

Gus, it seems like you know your stuff pretty well. Do you think there will be a large difference between the Far Cry 2 release on PS3 and XBOX 360?

Honestly it will depend on things like resolution and programming with Cell. The main thing PS3 games suffer most when compared to 360 is framerate which is all Cell related. Also texture size has a lot to do with it which is directly connected with resolution. 1080p size textures are huge and can take up a ton of space so if lets say you have the 360 having 720p and PS3 1080p with PS3 not being coded as good then framerate will definitely be a lot better on the 360. As far as actual GPUs go the RSX and 360 are pretty much identical in terms of what they can do. I think they both support AA up to 8x and Shader Model 2.0. Honestly Crytek could make the PS3 version superior to 360 based on textures alone because they have a lot more space to work with.

Of course consoles will always be behind PC because of it's ability to always have new technology available.