Projector wiring question

Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
I am not sure if this is the best section to ask, but I am currently wiring my room and had some questions. I am planning on having 120v power, HDMI, CAT6, and RG6 at the projector already. What I am wondering about now though is some kind of control. All of my equipment will be located in a separate room, and controlled by a Harmony RF remote. I am not very familiar with control systems that would use RS-232, or anything else. I know the Harmony will also blast IR from the remote, so I don't NEED to do anything, but should I run something anyway?

So my questions are
What should I run to the projector?
How should I control the projector?
Is there anything else specific to a projector instal I should know about?

Right now I am looking to use an Epson 3020 projector, but I probably wont buy till after the new year so that may change. Thanks in advance for the help!



Sean
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
I would just run another Cat5/6 cable. This will handle whatever control system you choose. You can easily convert it to transmit, IR, RS-232 (serial) or IP control.

You will want something as usually the projector is above and behind you so your regular IR remote may not bounce off the screen and you really don't want to have to point it behind you.

If you go with RF remote with an IR base station then use the one of the base station outputs 3.5mm flashers connected to the Cat5 cable and convert back to a 3.5mm on the projector end and plug that into the IR input.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
Well that makes it sound downright easy! So if I were to have it use IR lets say, I would need a receiver on one end and a transmitter on the other? Any links to specific parts I would need?


Thanks,
Sean
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The Harmony One, I believe, has a Ethernet receiver/IR blaster base station which can be tied in to a IR emitter you place at the projector.

It is STRONGLY recommended that you look at putting in 1" to 1.5" conduit from your equipment location to the projector location. This is the only true way to future proof your setup, but if not, I would likely add 1 more piece of cat-6 and probably 1 piece of cat-5e wiring to ensure things work as well as possible.

Do your homework on whether the 3020 is really what you want in there. The W1070 has far stronger ratings at the entry level.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
I don't think the Harmony One (that I have anyway) has any Ethernet provisions. I will have to look into that side of things a bit more I guess.

The run from the equipment closet to the projector is the shortest, easiest run in the whole system. I will do something to ensure I could pull an additional cable in the future if need be. You mention CAT5, is there a reason to use this over CAT6? I had planned on wiring everything (network related) with CAT6 since I got 1000' of it on the way. So you are saying to run 2, or 3 runs of CAT6 to the projector location?

I barely looked at projectors since I know gear changes constantly. I wont be buying for a few months at least, so when the time is coming closer I will dig in and start asking a million questions :) I know I recommended a W1070 to a friend of mine, but he went with something else.


Thanks,
Sean
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Don't forget about the screen price when you start pricing.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
Yeah, I think I am set on the screen. I was asking about them (and probably projectors) a while back. I need a motorized screen because of how the room is set up. After looking quite a bit I decided on a 100" Visual Apex tab tensioned motorized screen. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on it though. I know I was also looking at the EluneVision screens as well. I liked that they offered a flush mount, but the price difference was pretty steep. Also, I know nothing about projector mounts, so any help there would be awesome!

Thanks,
Sean
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Multiple runs of cat-6 are fine. Don't think of cat-6 as 'Ethernet'. It can do far more. It can carry low voltage power, work for IR extender systems, work for HD-Base-T transmission, work for RS-232, or other control. If the projector has a 12 volt trigger out, then it could tie into the screen to lower/raise it automatically. So, you pull cat-6, then just leave it unterminated behind the wall for when you may need it.

All the Vapex screens seem to be similar to a long line of other Chinese imported screens from what I can tell. They aren't like a Draper or a Dalite who manufacturer screens in the USA, so while quality is typically acceptable, it rarely is excellent, and at times can be very poor. Still, for the money, and with Visual Apex being a pretty solid etailer, I think they are a better choice for the cheaper screens than others may be.

For a mount, start hunting on eBay for a Chief RPMAU. It is, by far, the best mount on the market. It's pricey online, so look for one on eBay and spend some time searching. I usually pick them up for under $100 - which is a GOOD price.

Otherwise, the Peerless PRG-UNV is a good mount.

It's important to start shopping projectors right now, to get some idea of where you can place projectors in your space. The W1070 has a significantly different throw distance than most other projectors, so you can't put wiring in place at 14' from the screen and hope to use the W1070 with a 100" diagonal image. Likewise, you can't put wiring at 9' and use a Optoma projector with that same 100" screen. So, if you wire to a specific location, it will significantly impact your projector choices. Or at least eliminate a few key possibilities.

Of course, if you can swing a $2,000-$3,000 projector, that opens other possibilities way up.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
Got it! So I will probably run 3 pulls of CAT-6 over to the projector location. I will terminate 1, probably use one as a control, and leave one in the ceiling for later possible use (or as backup). It seems like most projectors do have a 12v out, and the Visual Apex screen comes with a wireless trigger that plugs in to have the screen go up and down.

That is pretty much what I found when I was looking at screens. I would love to get a great Made in USA screen (I always try and buy US made), but the cost is significantly higher from what I was able to find. If I was able to do a fixed screen I am sure this would be a different conversation, but alas.

So I looked up both mounts. On B&H (I get almost all of my photography gear there) they have the Chief for $140, and the Peerless for $87! Both seem reasonable to me! I have extremely limited experience setting up and adjusting a projector, but I know a solid mount is key! I imagine with two SVS's that will really come into play :) Anyway I like that the Peerless is a screw adjustment, seems MUCH easier to fine tune that way. With that said, the Chief mount looks pretty rock solid. You see to have experience with both, and obviously recommend the Chief over the Peerless, but how is it to adjust?

That makes a lot of sense! I don't have a massive budget for a projector unfortunately. That is mostly due to the fact that I am doing everything at once really. The good news is that it seems like a budget of around $1,000 can get me a very nice projector these days. So is the W1070 your recommendation given the screen I will be using, the size, and so on? The room will be dark, but not 100% light controlled. I will be watching mostly movies, and sports on it. The projector will likely end up directly above my head depending on the exact throw distance. The room is about 11' wide, 20' long, and 8' tall, with the seating being about 11' from the screen. Anything else you need to know, just ask!



Thank you for all of the help so far, it is really appreciated!

Sean
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Things I've learned in my years as a Projector owner and viewer.

1. When it comes to screen size don't go too large because even with a reasonable size eye strain does happen. I strongly suggest limiting your viewing sessions to give your eyes time to rest. :(

2. Cheap screens and expensive screens looks the same. Sure in hardcore comparison sessions there are differences, but once you've downed a couple beers and sit down to watch your favorite shows it really won't matter that much. A good projector has an amazing picture even on white wall. Of course a better screen doesn't hurt and I'd never turn down a Black Diamond or Stewart if I got a great deal on one. Just don't feel like you have to spend 3 grand to get a good picture. My Favi 92" manual pull-down does the job for less than 100 bucks. Of course having an electronic tab-tensioned screen is cool. But if you can go fixed frame then do it.

3. You will have to sit in the front of the movie theaters. :D

I recommend the Epson 3000. It has low cost lamp replacements and very good zoom and lens shift flexibility which makes setup significantly easier. You can pick up a Favi 100" manual pull down for 100 and use that to hold you over till you have the capital to get the tab-tensioned one.

You can put the projector on a shelf in the back and use two toggle ceiling hooks to hang the screen. It really does work.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Got it! So I will probably run 3 pulls of CAT-6 over to the projector location. I will terminate 1, probably use one as a control, and leave one in the ceiling for later possible use (or as backup). It seems like most projectors do have a 12v out, and the Visual Apex screen comes with a wireless trigger that plugs in to have the screen go up and down.
Yes, there are any number of uses which people can come up with when there are wires in place. It's good to have them there, and makes dealing with things in the future easier. Conduit is still the best recommendation, but a regular HDMI cable (non-Redmere) and some cat-6 cables should cover you for years to come.

That is pretty much what I found when I was looking at screens. I would love to get a great Made in USA screen (I always try and buy US made), but the cost is significantly higher from what I was able to find. If I was able to do a fixed screen I am sure this would be a different conversation, but alas.
I have to disagree with the previous poster when it comes to screens at some level. Cheap manual screens develop waves in the material typically within 2 years of ownership. This produces visible distortion in the image, most noticeable during pans. Watching hockey, by example, it appears obvious and personally bugged me all the time when I had a manual screen. So, the added cost of a tab-tensioned screen is really worth it and IMO, is the only way to go for retractable screens. So, I consider that a great choice. On the other hand, if you can't afford a tab-tensioned screen (you can) then getting a really cheap manual screen is far better than buying a motorized screen for hundreds more.

So I looked up both mounts. On B&H (I get almost all of my photography gear there) they have the Chief for $140, and the Peerless for $87! Both seem reasonable to me! I have extremely limited experience setting up and adjusting a projector, but I know a solid mount is key! I imagine with two SVS's that will really come into play :) Anyway I like that the Peerless is a screw adjustment, seems MUCH easier to fine tune that way. With that said, the Chief mount looks pretty rock solid. You see to have experience with both, and obviously recommend the Chief over the Peerless, but how is it to adjust?
The Chief RPMAU:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/467238-REG/Chief_RPMAU_RPMA_U_Elite_Ceiling_Mount.html
is better than the Peerless mount, by a fair bit. It uses a integrated gear system similar to the Peerless, but is built to a much tighter tolerance. Basically you tighten everything down pretty firmly, then the gears still allow for the mount to be adjusted. Once adjusted, the mount doesn't move at all. The Peerless seems to still have a small amount of movement. This may not seem like much, but a quarter of a degree at the mount equates to half an inch on screen. But, the Peerless is better than most, and I do like it.

If you aren't doing all of this right away though, you can keep an eye on eBay and perhaps pick up a Chief RPMAU for under $100 at some point.

Here is a white one for under $100 shipped:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chief-RPMAUW-Projector-Mount-with-lock-and-Key-/111498088320?pt=US_Projector_Mounts_Stands&hash=item19f5cdcf80

They do come up pretty often at good prices, and I've been known to get one without the universal bracket, but with a bracket designed for a different projector, and just drilling holes into the metal plate it comes with, to fit the projector it is going onto. This is a good way to get a great mount for even less money...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chief-RPMA187-RPMA-187-RPA-Elite-Projector-Mount-/230817605441?pt=US_Projector_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35bdcd2741

That makes a lot of sense! I don't have a massive budget for a projector unfortunately. That is mostly due to the fact that I am doing everything at once really. The good news is that it seems like a budget of around $1,000 can get me a very nice projector these days. So is the W1070 your recommendation given the screen I will be using, the size, and so on? The room will be dark, but not 100% light controlled. I will be watching mostly movies, and sports on it. The projector will likely end up directly above my head depending on the exact throw distance. The room is about 11' wide, 20' long, and 8' tall, with the seating being about 11' from the screen.
The W1070 remains the best looking projector under $1,800 on the market. The on-sale Sony HW40ES may be the best looking projector under $3,000 right now. Both work well with some ambient light, and put out a lot of light, while still delivering a quality on screen image. The Sony is noticeably better than the BenQ, but comes in about $1,200 more, so it better look good! The Sony has more placement flexibility, far more lens shift, and far superior black levels and shadow detail, and is nearly silent. These are the major factors which set it apart. But, the W1070, if you can get it where it must go, does a very good job at producing a very sharp on-screen image, with excellent color reproduction, very fast response time, excellent 3D, and good colors while maintaining brightness.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
Just to get it out of the way, I wouldn't get a screen that moves and isn't tensioned. Motorized or not, I would be far too worried about it curling or getting waves. To me that little bit of extra money is totally worth it. So with that said, it sounds like I am set on that screen now. Seems to be the best "bang for my buck", albeit not the greatest screen on the market.

After I posted about the mounts I looked at the Chief a bit more, and read the manual and saw that it has a gear drive adjustment. That 100% sold me on that mount. Looks beefy, and has gear drive style adjustment, I AM IN! Now the question is, is there any reason to get a black or a white version? White would blend with the ceiling better (unless I convince the wife to let me paint it darker), but would it possibly reflect light in a bad way? Looking at the W1070 for a 100" screen it wont be very far away. I think it came out to ~8' which is actually going to be in front of me. I guess that brings up another question/comment. Is having the projector in front of the seating position bad in any particular way? Seems like the only solution to something like that would be a larger screen, or sit closer though.

Last up, I think you convinced me to go with the W1070. For one it can be had for VERY cheap (just over $700) which helps my overall budget. Second you are not the only person to sing its praises by a long shot. It looks to universally be THE projector under $1k for sure. I actually even recommended it to a friend of mine recently. I thought that the Epson may have some advantages that justify the money, but you say its the best sub $1,800 projector so I guess not.

So, assuming a 100" screen, 11' viewing distance (for the "front" row), and using the BenQ W1070 do you guys have any tips, tricks, placement, adjustment, settings, etc. for me? I am hoping my wire shows up today, and I can start tearing apart walls soon :)



Thanks again guys,
Sean
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Learn to use the calculator over at Projector Central:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-W1070-projection-calculator-pro.htm

It's a valuable tool once you understand how to use it completely.

But, with a 100" diagonal, which sounds reasonable with an 11' viewing distance, the W1070 lens must be between 8'4" and 10'11" from the screen. It has some optical zoom on it (like a camera) and I would put it about 10' lens to screen distance. Most people sit right under the projector. I think this is the right place to sit because air vents from the sides/front/back, not straight down.

A white mount is fine. There is a RSMAUW mount on eBay right now. Might be able to get it for $80 or so. I wouldn't spend more considering the pricing at B&H. Oh, and B&H does have the RSMAUW model. That is the 'mini' Elite model. Same as the full size, but rated to 25 pounds instead of 50 pounds. Considering the W1070 is about 6 pounds, it will have no issues with that projector. You will still have to get a ceiling plate (1.5" plumbing flange from Home Depot) and an extension column (1.5" black plumbing pipe of the correct length from Home Depot). I paint them with spray paint to match the mount.

The lens must be between 2" and 6" above the top of the screen.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
Well I ordered the white mount off of ebay from earlier, so that is settled :) I am slightly confused, is there additional parts I will need with it? Sounds like I will need a 1.5" NPT flange and a 1.5" X whatever nipple for the proper drop.

Moving onto the location. Is it detrimental to the picture quality to zoom it? Overall I would prefer it a little further away from the screen, but I care more about picture quality than anything.

Now for the really important stuff, control! So my buddy and I were talking today and that raised some questions. There are two things I need to accomplish here. Of course controlling the projector is number 1, but secondary to that is some minor lighting control. The vague idea that we came up with is some kind of IR blaster in the front of the room with the intention of controlling the projector, and a second blaster (possibly near the projector) with the intention of controlling an IR switch for the lights. The problem is I have no idea anything about any of this. I am thinking of a wall plate type IR blaster, but do they exist? Will they have the power to go across the room? Is there a better way to do all of this? The RS-232 route would need some kind of controller correct?

I am sorry for all of the questions, but a lot of this is new to me. I really appreciate all of the help and advice from you guys. You guys have no idea how excited I am about this project!


Sean
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Well I ordered the white mount off of ebay from earlier, so that is settled :) I am slightly confused, is there additional parts I will need with it? Sounds like I will need a 1.5" NPT flange and a 1.5" X whatever nipple for the proper drop.
Yes, you have it figured out. The better mounts don't come with the pipe (extension) or flange, as many ceilings are different and many setups are different, so you have a top shelf projector mount, but now you need the hardware to hang it from your ceiling. You can pick up 1.5" pipe at Home Depot and a 1.5" flange. Pick up a can of flat white (or matching) spray paint as well to get the extra pieces to match exactly.

Moving onto the location. Is it detrimental to the picture quality to zoom it? Overall I would prefer it a little further away from the screen, but I care more about picture quality than anything.
Zoom is always in use. You zoom in, you zoom out, you zoom in the middle. This seems to confuse some people, but there is no such thing, when you have a zoom lens, to 'not use zoom'. So, it's fair to ask where in the zoom range the best image comes from. And the answer to that is about 3/4 of the way back from closest. So, if your lens to screen range was 10 to 15 feet, about 13.5 - 14 feet (or so) would theoretically produce the 'best' image.

But, most projectors, with a decent lens, have zero difference from closest to furthest in the zoom range. Put it where it works best for you.

Now for the really important stuff, control! So my buddy and I were talking today and that raised some questions. There are two things I need to accomplish here. Of course controlling the projector is number 1, but secondary to that is some minor lighting control. The vague idea that we came up with is some kind of IR blaster in the front of the room with the intention of controlling the projector, and a second blaster (possibly near the projector) with the intention of controlling an IR switch for the lights. The problem is I have no idea anything about any of this. I am thinking of a wall plate type IR blaster, but do they exist? Will they have the power to go across the room? Is there a better way to do all of this? The RS-232 route would need some kind of controller correct?
RS-232 needs a controller, and is very reliable, but a fair bit more complex for the newbie. Certainly fun to play with at some point, but perhaps not today.

There are basic IR controlled light switches you can point your remote at. And I personally wouldn't worry about projector control. All projectors are designed to work pretty well with an IR bounce off the screen. I have no issues at all with my projector when doing setup, etc. bouncing off the screen.

I wouldn't worry to much about control, but you may want to pull a few spare CAT wires where you may want a bit of extra control.

For lighting, I've personally done the Lutron Spacer System (SPS-600 or SPS-1000) dimmers. They have clear back boxes, and I bury a IR emitter inside the box to control the scenes. It's a slick way of doing things and keeping wiring hidden. I think these may be discontinued, but are available on eBay.

You could also look into controllable lighting systems such as Insteon, which are consumer grade items with a ton of different control options. My last house had Spacer System, my current house I am using Insteon. I think I like the Insteon a bit more, but I am using RS-232 for everything. Still, I know they make IR modules you can put at the front of your room to run the show. Just not sure how everything connects with an IR controller. It may just plug into the wall and work via PowerLine/mesh network which is how Insteon works.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
If I haven't said it already, BMXTRIX YOU ARE THE MAN!!! Thank you for all of your help, I owe ya a beer or something!

So I really like the Insteon system. Looks like I will need two of these switches
http://www.smarthome.com/switchlinc-dimmer-insteon-2477d-remote-control-dimmer-dual-band-white.html

And one IR converter
http://www.insteon.com/2411R-IRLinc.html

Nice and simple, but can expand to do a LOT of stuff later on. I was wanting to add some cameras, and other things, and this system seems like it can do everything I wanted and then some. Looks awesome, and thanks again for the recommendation.

I think all that is left now is to wire everything, and buy some of the components. Wiring should start in a couple weeks, and I cant wait! I will probably update this thread with a link to a more dedicated "build thread". Again, thank you all for all of the help!


Sean
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I've been fortunate to avoid waving in the time I've owned my screen which to me is very surprising. That said I don't think 1k is unreasonable for a good screen. Especially is the tabs hold up.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
It is a pretty substantial jump in cost for the tensioned screens, but I know with my luck if I got one that wasn't it would curl within months. There are probably hundreds of thousands of screens out there (both pull down, and motorized) that have never curled or gotten wavy, or anything of the sort though. I also like the bit of extra black all the way around the screen on the tensioned screens. There are also two reasons I wanted a motorized over a pull down. One was the WOW factor of the screen coming down when I turn it all on. The other is that the screen will come down to the same spot every time. Well hopefully it does that anyway.

I would say that in a perfect world I would have a really nice fixed screen, but that isn't 100% true. In a perfect world, in this room, I would have a good sized flat panel for casual watching, and a flush mount motorized screen that came down over it for movie time. That was my plan initially, but its not really worth doing for us since its just the Wife and I. Also with the window on that wall it would difficult to mount the TV, and be able to get at the window to open it.


Sean
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I have been doing A/V for over a decade now.

I have never, ever, ever seen a non-tensioned screen which didn't have curling or waves in the material.
 
Rowdy S13

Rowdy S13

Audioholic Chief
Since I haven't bought gear yet, lets keep asking questions :) I have been looking and drooling over systems all day today, and I have noticed one thing. Everyone has a bigger screen than I am thinking of! When its a 20 person theater, and they are 30' away from the screen I don't mind. But I have seen more than a few who are closer than my proposed 11' or so. Now I am planning on doing a bar type deal behind the main couch, so I will have two rows of seating just so we are all on the same page. I remember coming up with between 10-12' viewing distance for THX and the main one I cant remember right now (its 1:30AM). Anyway, I checked some calculators, read a little, and was disappointed with a 100" screen since I wanted something like a 133" :) So what say YE experts?! Is 100" perfect, should I go a little bigger? Should I go a lot bigger?

Also, regardless of the screen size, how do I know how high or low to position it? Just for giggles, here is a drawing of the room I did in CAD while bored at work. Hopefully this gives you all a better idea of what I am working with, and helps you help me, help myself :)



Thanks,
Sean
 

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