Problem with RG6 Component Cables

[Omega Supreme]

I made a 70' run of component cables using RG6 coax and terminated them with some Monoprice "RCA male to female F connectors. I am outputting from a Dish Network 622 receiver. The picture looks good except for 2 bands (im not sure what the technical term is) that slowly run from the bottom of the screen to the top. Once at the top they begin again at the bottom. Any idea on what is causing this or how to fix this? From what I have read 70' should be well within the range of component over RG6. Thanks for any advice.

 

[highfigh]

I made a 70' run of component cables using RG6 coax and terminated them with some Monoprice "RCA male to female F connectors. I am outputting from a Dish Network 622 receiver. The picture looks good except for 2 bands (im not sure what the technical term is) that slowly run from the bottom of the screen to the top. Once at the top they begin again at the bottom. Any idea on what is causing this or how to fix this? From what I have read 70' should be well within the range of component over RG6. Thanks for any advice.

That sounds like a ground loop. Unplug the three cables and connect the satellite receiver to the TV using the composite out on the sat box and the composite in on the TV. If the noise is still there, it may be a noise pickup issue and it could be due to the dish feeds not beign grounded where they enter the building (Dish Network, DirecTv and cable companies are notorious for not grounding their feeds, as required by the National Electric Code). If that does eliminate the bars, you may need to re-terminate at least one of the cables and if you do, I would use RCA compression fittings, not F connectors and adapters. You always want to use the lowest number of connections possible.

If it turns out to be a ground loop issue, make sure the satellite feeds are grounded properly and if possible, make sure the wiring to the equipment and TV are in good condition. It's not totally unusual for wires to be loose at the receptacles and they should be checked if it's an older house. Also, make sure the cabling doesn't run parallel to any power wires.

 

[Omega Supreme]

I connected via the composite input/output and I get the same banding. If I connect it via component to my other tv (about 6' away) it looks perfect (no banding). I have tried swaping the cables and that does not seem to do anything. As far as I know there is no grounding on the sat cable coming into my house. Do you think this is the problem? If so, how can I ground it? Also I have the sat. in cable got to my surge protector then to my receiver. Would that mean that it is grounded?

 

[highfigh]

I connected via the composite input/output and I get the same banding. If I connect it via component to my other tv (about 6' away) it looks perfect (no banding). I have tried swaping the cables and that does not seem to do anything. As far as I know there is no grounding on the sat cable coming into my house. Do you think this is the problem? If so, how can I ground it? Also I have the sat. in cable got to my surge protector then to my receiver. Would that mean that it is grounded?

If you have a long enough extension cord, plug it into the same outlet as the rest of the system and run it over to the TV. If the banding goes away, you might need to re-assign the TV's power feed to a different breaker position in the panel. If you measure the voltage at two adjacent breakers, you'll measure about 220-240VAC and if the neutral connections aren't great, the resistance can cause issues like this. You DO NOT want to use a ground lift adapter at the TV, satellite box or receiver. You should also plug the extension cord in at the far TV's outlet and connect the other TV to that. If the bands show up, you have a ground loop.

 

[Omega Supreme]

I finally had a chance to run an extension cord from the same outlet that the sat. receiver is pluged into down to the other tv. This eliminated the bands. Does that mean I have a ground loop? The sat. receiver is in an addition to my house that add a few years back. When building the addition I added a breaker box and tied it into my old breaker box. I then did all my wiring from the new breaker box. So one tv is on one breaker box and the other tv is on the other breaker box. Could this be the problem? If it is a ground loop what is the easiest way to fix it? Could I just pull a piece of 12ga romex from the wall outlet in the addition and then add a new outlet at the tv w/the banding?

 

[highfigh]

I finally had a chance to run an extension cord from the same outlet that the sat. receiver is pluged into down to the other tv. This eliminated the bands. Does that mean I have a ground loop? The sat. receiver is in an addition to my house that add a few years back. When building the addition I added a breaker box and tied it into my old breaker box. I then did all my wiring from the new breaker box. So one tv is on one breaker box and the other tv is on the other breaker box. Could this be the problem? If it is a ground loop what is the easiest way to fix it? Could I just pull a piece of 12ga romex from the wall outlet in the addition and then add a new outlet at the tv w/the banding?

If the main breaker box is separated by more than a few feet, code calls for a bonding conductor to be run between them, with ground stakes installed at the new panel. The bonding conductor makes sure the two panels are at equal electrical potential (no voltage can be measured between them) and this will eliminate the ground loop. Make sure the cable/sat feed is grounded at the point of entry to the building- this goes for all communications service entrances.

If you didn't follow code, you need to get it up to spec.

 

[davidtwotrees]

Good job, Hifi. Very useful information on how electrical systems can affect our A/V set ups. Thanks.

 

[Rickster71]

Hope the OP had an electrician install the sub-panel.

The local authority will want bonding regardless of the distance.
A problem arises when adding ground rods at the sub-panel; it's one of different ground potentials. When electronics are involved I always run the ground back to the main panel. As a matter of fact, I always run the ground from a sub-panel back to the main panel.
Also, the ground and neutral bar is not bonded in a sub-panel.

 

[Omega Supreme]

highfigh, are you saying that I need to install another ground rod for the new panel and run a ground wire from the new panel to the new ground rod? Here is how it was installed. Installed the new breaker box in the new garage (about 20' away). I told an electrican the size of the new box and asked what size cable to use. I cant remember the size but each wire was about the size of my finger. I wired the the ground to the ground bar in the main breaker box and the pos. to the pos. and the neu. to the neu. The main breaker box is grounded to a ground rod. I then wired in the new box like the old (gnd to gnd, neu to neu, pos to pos.). So the new box has a gnd that runs to the main box gnd that then runs to a gnd rod. Is this not correct? I know my surge protector has a grounded light on it that shows it is grounded.

 

[highfigh]

highfigh, are you saying that I need to install another ground rod for the new panel and run a ground wire from the new panel to the new ground rod? Here is how it was installed. Installed the new breaker box in the new garage (about 20' away). I told an electrican the size of the new box and asked what size cable to use. I cant remember the size but each wire was about the size of my finger. I wired the the ground to the ground bar in the main breaker box and the pos. to the pos. and the neu. to the neu. The main breaker box is grounded to a ground rod. I then wired in the new box like the old (gnd to gnd, neu to neu, pos to pos.). So the new box has a gnd that runs to the main box gnd that then runs to a gnd rod. Is this not correct? I know my surge protector has a grounded light on it that shows it is grounded.

Look into the code requirements in your area- it isn't the same when the sub-panel is in the same building as for an out-building. I'm pretty sure we have at least one electrician here, so they can be more help. If there's any resistance between one panel and the other, you can have these issues. Also, if you use one circuit for the TV and another for the rest of the equipment, it can cause the same problems. Can you reassign the TV's circuit? Adjacent breakers are on different legs of the supply (you have two 120VAC feeds and one ground coming from the power company).

 

[sawzalot]

I think post number 8 is pretty helpful seeing how Rickster is definitely an expert in this field.

 

[markw]

I think post number 8 is pretty helpful seeing how Rickster is definitely an expert in this field.

After all, he IS an electrician. I can't believe that, for as long as he's been posting here, Hifive didn't know that. But, that wouldn't have stopped him from commenting ust to get the last word.

Gotta love how some here have to try to put others down in order to try to impress. Well, I guess it impesses the newbies who don't know the score ...yet.

 

[sawzalot]

After all, he IS an electrician. I can't believe that, for as long as he's been posting here, Hifive didn't know that. But, that wouldn't have stopped him from commenting ust to get the last word.

Gotta love how some here have to try to put others down in order to try to impress. Well, I guess it impesses the newbies who don't know the score ...yet.

I always thought or rather just assumed that everyone here knew that Rickster is an electrician, always spot on with his advice as well.

 

[Omega Supreme]

I am assuming when you say bonding between panels that you mean grounding from one panel to the next. If that is the case then they are bonded. I live in a rural area so there are no code requirements. It sounds like I have it grounded like rickster has suggested. So I guess what I am asking is: Is there an easier fix to this then to just pulling another line from the one TV's outlet box to a new outlet box at the other TV. This can be achieved pretty easily but I was not sure if there would be an easier solution.

 

[Rickster71]

I am assuming when you say bonding between panels that you mean grounding from one panel to the next. If that is the case then they are bonded. I live in a rural area so there are no code requirements. It sounds like I have it grounded like rickster has suggested. So I guess what I am asking is: Is there an easier fix to this then to just pulling another line from the one TV's outlet box to a new outlet box at the other TV. This can be achieved pretty easily but I was not sure if there would be an easier solution.

The short answer is to get one of these:

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=3110&sku=41147

I could type an entire page on this subject; to prevent boredom I won't.

To the OP: Was the panel installed by an electrician?
I'd check the Neutral bar in the sub-panel; it will have an option to be bonded to ground (with a screw or a jumper); that bar should NOT be bonded in a sub panel.


I'd like to thank Mark and Rob for their kind words and support.
I don't think of myself as an expert; though I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few months ago.

 

[highfigh]

After all, he IS an electrician. I can't believe that, for as long as he's been posting here, Hifive didn't know that. But, that wouldn't have stopped him from commenting ust to get the last word.

Gotta love how some here have to try to put others down in order to try to impress. Well, I guess it impesses the newbies who don't know the score ...yet.

I can't believe that after as long as you and I have been posting here, you still called me 'Highfive'.

Who was trying to get the last word? The OP asked me a question AFTER Rickster posted. I don't see where my info contradicts Rickster's, either.

I wasn't putting anyone down. I wrote that he needs to get it up to spec if code wasn't followed. There's no meanness in that, at all. Why you chose to take it that way and then bust me on it, I don't know.

 

[markw]

Deal with it.

I can't believe that after as long as you and I have been posting here, you still called me 'Highfive'.

Who was trying to get the last word? The OP asked me a question AFTER Rickster posted. I don't see where my info contradicts Rickster's, either.

I wasn't putting anyone down. I wrote that he needs to get it up to spec if code wasn't followed. There's no meanness in that, at all. Why you chose to take it that way and then bust me on it, I don't know.

If I chose to spend the time, I can find more than a few links where you follow, me at least (I don't really notice your actions to others), with either a sinde comment or simply restate what has just been said. Your crack about a 3 db gain springs to mind since it was only a short time ago.

Would you like me to post it? ...and my source for what I said as well? That shouldn't take me too long.

Aw, what the heck: Here it is. I'm post two. Narutally, you followed in post four with what could be said to be a, well, "questionable" remark of "questionable" veracity.

In fact, A chart I recently posted here in this thread pretty much states, almost word for word, exactly what I said, which you refuted.

...but apparantly you missed it.

Granted, we could argue semantics, but I hope this puts the issue to rest. Remember, there are more.

But, what really got me was your bemoaning the lack of electricians participating in this thread just after Rickster posted was just a bit too coincidental, and so typical of your MO. Rick is too nice a guy to say anything, or possibly even notice. I'm not.

 

[highfigh]

If I chose to spend the time, I can find more than a few links where you follow, me at least (I don't really notice your actions to others), with either a sinde comment or simply restate what has just been said. Your crack about a 3 db gain springs to mind since it was only a short time ago.

Would you like me to post it? ...and my source for what I said as well? That shouldn't take me too long.

Aw, what the heck: Here it is. I'm post two. Narutally, you followed in post four with what could be said to be a, well, "questionable" remark of "questionable" veracity.

In fact, A chart I recently posted here in this thread pretty much states, almost word for word, exactly what I said, which you refuted.

...but apparantly you missed it.

Granted, we could argue semantics, but I hope this puts the issue to rest. Remember, there are more.

But, what really got me was your bemoaning the lack of electricians participating in this thread just after Rickster posted was just a bit too coincidental, and so typical of your MO. Rick is too nice a guy to say anything, or possibly even notice. I'm not.

When I posted "I'm pretty sure we have at least one electrician here, so they can be more help.", it was before 6AM and after a night of not-so-great sleep, I didn't remember that Rickster is an electrician. For that, I apologize to him. I would hardly call that 'bemoaning the fact'.

The "crack" wasn't meant to insult you or anyone else, but a 3dB difference is more than "barely noticeable" according to the info I have read on my own and also what we were taught in the acoustics class I took. Also, from Wiki, "Consequently it is useful and accurate to express perceived loudness in the logarithmic decibel (dB) scale; a change of 1 dB, which corresponds to a 25.9% change in power level, is considered to be the smallest change in sound power level perceivable by the average human ear under idealized test conditions.". It's not always the worst source. Because it's "under idealized test conditions", I'll agree that a 1 db change won't necessarily be audible in many conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power- it's in the 'Power and loudness in the real world' section.

I had seen your post but I chose not to respond to the comments aimed at me- I don't see any point to verbally attacking anyone on a forum, though. I don't remember actually 'attacking' you but if you read between the words, that's not something I can do anything about. If it seemed intentional, I'll say right now that it wasn't.

When people claim that a minute tweak of a cable, batteries used to "bias the dielectric and reduce cable break-in time", using different screws to hold the drivers in place and using a green magic marker make a system sound better when they can't be verified, the least we can do is realize that audio/video and electronics is an area that's filled with precision when actually measuring values.

If you want to see this as "having the last word", so be it. If you want to accuse someone of something, at least allow them to explain.

Bickering aside, all I was trying to do is help the OP find the cause of his problem, based on seeing & rectifying it myself and talking to others about it, including electricians and several electrical engineers.

 

[markw]

Yeah, semantics. Whatever...

Let's just drop it and move on. Suffice it to say that I'm not the only one who noticed this about you. ...just the first to comment on it.

 

[Omega Supreme]

Here is a pic of the sub panel.
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/OmegaSupreme26/IMG_1529.jpg
Rick, I did install the subpanel myself at the instruction of an electrician. He did not mention anything about bounding. He told me to run a 2 AWG cable (2 Hot, 1 Neu) from the main panel to the sub. It looks as if it is wired incorrectly. I think this is what I need to do (Let me know if this is correct):

1. Remove the bonding strap in the subpanel (the bar at the top of the panel that goes from bus bar to bus bar).

2. Move all the Neutral's to one bus bar and all the grounds to the other bus bar.

3. Make sure the round screw is on the ground bus bar to ground it to the box.

4. Make sure the ground screw is out on the Neu. bus bar so that it is isolated from the box.

5. Run a new ground wire from the Ground bus bar in the sub panel to one of the Neu./Gnd bus bars in the Main panel.

Thanks for your help.