Problem with Epson projector and keystones

[LouK]

Has anyone else run into this before?

I have an Epson LS-11000 projector which displays normally when connected directly through a standard HDMI cable plus a short, flex gender change cable, to a TV box or A/V receiver. But put a keystone in the path and it says “no signal”. I have tried four brands of keystones.

• An NVR and two other monitors so far, work through these keystones with no issues.
• The projector works normally with a short, flex gender changer cable at the projector end. So why does the keystone cause a problem? They’re both couplers.
• Same issue for a repair end. Continuity on every wire, works with the other equipment but like the keystone, “no signal” from the Epson.

Epson has been of no help, say they don’t test that sort of thing. I should go find an installer.

Any help would be very, very greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I use the little HDMI-Coupler/Extender/Adapter (male-to-female) I bought from Amazon for my Epson-4050 and Epson EB-PU1006 to connect the HDMI from the Epson's to the wall HDMI connectors. They work great.

I can't recall which brands. But they look like this.

Amazon.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Has anyone else run into this before?

I have an Epson LS-11000 projector which displays normally when connected directly through a standard HDMI cable plus a short, flex gender change cable, to a TV box or A/V receiver. But put a keystone in the path and it says “no signal”. I have tried four brands of keystones.

• An NVR and two other monitors so far, work through these keystones with no issues.
• The projector works normally with a short, flex gender changer cable at the projector end. So why does the keystone cause a problem? They’re both couplers.
• Same issue for a repair end. Continuity on every wire, works with the other equipment but like the keystone, “no signal” from the Epson.

Epson has been of no help, say they don’t test that sort of thing. I should go find an installer.

Any help would be very, very greatly appreciated. Thanks.


View attachment 66677View attachment 66678

It seems you have lots of company. It seems many can not get an HDMI signal to pass through those Keystone connectors. Just dump them.

 

[BMXTRIX]

There is data loss when using a HDMI coupler inline with anything. This causes massive issues when running 4K signals and HDR at full data rates of 18Gb/s. It's not a minor thing with this type of connection. I have done some pretty extensive testing with 4K/HDR content at 18Gb/s and passing full data rate signals and basically found that no passive solution to extend a cable would work.

This was for commercial work using 4K displays. The basic idea being there is a TV on the wall and the client wants a HDMI plug in on the wall just a few feet below the display. So, a basic HDMI coupler at the wall which goes up to the display directly. Similar to what you are doing, but with short HDMI cables. No more than 6 feet on one side and about 6 feet on the other side. 12 feet in total, with a coupler in the middle.

It didn't work. Or, more accurately, we saw the signal drop out once every few seconds due to data loss in the coupler.

If I ran a 15' HDMI cable direct. No problems.

If I used a active HDMI restorer in between two 15' HDMI cables. No problems.

If I used a active HDMI cable restorer between two short 3' HDMI cables and used ONE coupler and a short 3' HDMI cable, I had dropouts of the signal.

So, the bottom line is that HDMI must run source to display (or AV receiver to display) all the time for the signal to properly pass.

To clean up the look at the projector and AV receiver side of things, a brush plate or bullnose plate can be used at the wall to pass the cables through cleanly. But, while a coupler does look good, it introduces too much data loss to allow it to be an effective solution.

 

[LouK]

Update: not all extension cables are created equal.

So after trying four different keystone brands I gave up on using a keystone with the Epson LS11000. But I still needed more cable from the wall to the receiver.

I attached a short extension (Eluteng - see photo) and the Epson didn’t like it any more than the keystone = “no signal”. But I thought that doesn’t make sense because there’s a longer flex extension (iBirdie) that’s working at the projector end. So I tried another brand, VCE, and it worked, but was too short. So I ordered iBirdie again.

The Epson is the only projector I know of with this degree of vertical lens shift (96%) that allows this installation (no hanging box or projector) without keystone correction. This projector is entirely above the top edge of the screen with a ceiling fan in front and I was able to frame the screen exactly to the image without masking.

Too bad it’s not more forgiving of cabling and that support is a bit thin.

 

[TLS Guy]

Update: not all extension cables are created equal.

So after trying four different keystone brands I gave up on using a keystone with the Epson LS11000. But I still needed more cable from the wall to the receiver.

I attached a short extension (Eluteng - see photo) and the Epson didn’t like it any more than the keystone = “no signal”. But I thought that doesn’t make sense because there’s a longer flex extension (iBirdie) that’s working at the projector end. So I tried another brand, VCE, and it worked, but was too short. So I ordered iBirdie again.

The Epson is the only projector I know of with this degree of vertical lens shift (96%) that allows this installation (no hanging box or projector) without keystone correction. This projector is entirely above the top edge of the screen with a ceiling fan in front and I was able to frame the screen exactly to the image without masking.

Too bad it’s not more forgiving of cabling and that support is a bit thin.

I think part of your trouble is that you are using the wrong HDMI cable. If you cable is longer than 10' then you need a powered active cable. The optical hybrid cables are best. I use Ruipro who make the gold standard hybrid optical HDMI cables. Make sure you use a voltage inserter to power it, otherwise you may blow your HDMI board

 

[LouK]

Bluerigger adds a booster at 75'. I pulled two of them at framing and they work fine. The 50' and down with no boost also work. I don't really understand needing power inserters at 10'. If optical had been available when we framed, I probably would have pulled that as well.

The projector cable is 15' + 1.5' flex extensions at each end. It works fine. Without a keystone, that is.

 

[TLS Guy]

Bluerigger adds a booster at 75'. I pulled two of them at framing and they work fine. The 50' and down with no boost also work. I don't really understand needing power inserters at 10'. If optical had been available when we framed, I probably would have pulled that as well.

The projector cable is 15' + 1.5' flex extensions at each end. It works fine. Without a keystone, that is.

It is not as good as you think it is, and your performance IS downgraded with that cable, and the keystone just shuts it down.

You need a hybrid cable, where the video is sent over an optical cable and the audio over copper. That 15' cable is way too long for 4K video unless an active hybrid cable is installed.

These cables are directional and convert to optical at the sending end and reconvert at the receiving end. So they are directional and the arrows need to point away from the sending unit and to the receiving unit. The power inserter is to power the converters and can be placed at the sending or receiving end.

What I have told you is absolutely essential architecture for your system to work properly and give the performance of what it is capable. This is a must do.

I have been using a Ruipro active cable for my run to the TV for 4 and and half years, with a voltage inserter and it has worked perfectly with zero issues.

By the way these hybrid cable can be used in runs over 200 ft, and should be specked at over 10' and definitely over 12'.

 

[LouK]

I'm not aware of cabling issues. Pass the cable (with flex extension) straight through the face plate without a keystone and the projector displays beautifully. And I’m not about to tear up ceiling and walls to replace a cable in order to test a keystone.

I’m simply curious why such a simple element as a keystone coupler defeats the Epson when an extension cable does not. My previous Sharp DLP projector had no issue with keystones but this Epson laser does. Not even Epson can answer this. Their reply is that they don’t test with anything but a straight cable from box to projector. They tell you the keystone has somehow changed the signal (yes, apparently) but they don’t know why and that’s where they leave you.

And I’m curious as well why a repair end that displays continuity on all 20 pins of exactly the same length and type Bluerigger cable fails, but again only with the Epson. It works with other devices including NVR, other monitors, splitters and switches. There’s something about the Epson.

 

[Trebdp83]

Curious, what exactly was your previous projector? What is the receiver in use here. Connected devices?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not aware of cabling issues. Pass the cable (with flex extension) straight through the face plate without a keystone and the projector displays beautifully. And I’m not about to tear up ceiling and walls to replace a cable in order to test a keystone.

I’m simply curious why such a simple element as a keystone coupler defeats the Epson when an extension cable does not. My previous Sharp DLP projector had no issue with keystones but this Epson laser does. Not even Epson can answer this. Their reply is that they don’t test with anything but a straight cable from box to projector. They tell you the keystone has somehow changed the signal (yes, apparently) but they don’t know why and that’s where they leave you.

And I’m curious as well why a repair end that displays continuity on all 20 pins of exactly the same length and type Bluerigger cable fails, but again only with the Epson. It works with other devices including NVR, other monitors, splitters and switches. There’s something about the Epson.

Your problem is that you are applying analog signal transfer to digital signal transfer. Those two have totally different physics regarding signal transfer.

Simply put, analog signals are seamless and continuous. Data signals go in packets, and there is a huge amount of data in them. There is always some corruption and the more data, the bigger the problem. Now 4K and 8K data streams have enormous amount of data in them. One of the main factors in the passage of digital signal packets is data corruption. A lot of this is due to reflections. This is especially likely to occur at interfaces like the plugs and sockets at each end of the cable.

The next thing you have to understand is that since there is always some corruption and error correction always comes into play. In milder degrees the error correction completely corrects the corrupted data. This is usually so when playing a digital disc for instance. The next stage is when the signal can be read, but is of lower quality. So you can think you have 4k but is actually 2K for instance. When the corruption and lost data is more severe, then the signal is suddenly cut.

Now I can tell you that your HDMI cable is already causing high errors, but error correction is coping. When you add the Keystone then the vastly added reflections form the added interface, push the error correction in your Epson over the edge, and the signal is dropped.

The next point I would make is that you have a poor installation. You NEVER EVER put any AV cable in the ceiling without it being in conduit. If you use conduit, which is vital, then you could change your HDMI cable to the correct one you have in a few minutes, and not remove any part of the room. Any HDMI cable can fail, and they quite often do.

I can tell you for certain that your HDMI cable is too long for 4K and is not in spec. Then you add the Keystone and the signal goes over the digital cliff.

 

[Trebdp83]

Many add new components to a system without thinking about their HDMI cables meeting or exceeding the specs of those new devices.

Anybody introducing HDMI 2.1 equipped devices, such as the Epson here, into a system should replace ALL of the cables with Ultra Certified(Tested 48Gbps cables with ethernet support) cables to avoid handshake issues.

If one adds couplers and extenders, all bets are off. I can’t think of any Ultra Certified Keystone couplers but there are those that claim to support 8K @60Hz/4K @120Hz at varying lengths.

If the receiver and devices are HDMI 2.0 devices with 18Gbps caps, a signal such as 4K @60Hz RGB/4:4:4 8bit or 4K @60Hz HDR 4:2:2 10 bit will hit that 18Gbps ceiling and any issues can result in complete signal loss when using Premium Certified(18Gbps) cables.