preamps and sound quality

[moves]

moves
What do you want your speakes to sound like? You've read some of the comments, I am sure. Grant is right on and so is everyone else. There is an old saying "you can't polish a turd". Besides you're looking for a processor and not a pre-amp.

I have a processor! I am just looking for a better sound that I already have that's all. I am looking for ways to achieve this with various different types of equipment.

 

[GranteedEV]

I have a processor! I am just looking for a better sound that I already have that's all. I am looking for ways to achieve this with various different types of equipment.

If you want better sound, here is the equipment you need:

oh my god... I never said I don't like how my speakers sound... In fact, I love 'em. I just want better.

It's safe to say, that the speakers and their interaction with the room is 95% of what we hear, and in more cases, 99%

So if you love your speakers, you need to accept that it's foolish to expect better. You can improve their imaging by adding absorption panels at the cost of spaciousness. You can improve their bass with some bass traps. Beyond that, you're stuck with the sound quality of your speakers. Electronics (amps and preamps to drive those amps)let them go louder, except when they are so mechanically limited that they can't go louder - resulting in compression which we perceive as poor sound quality. Some really bad electronics can hurt sound quality but beyond that you're stuck with what you're stuck with - your speakers.

If you want better sound, it starts at the transducer and ends at the room. The only other significant factor is the sound quality of the recording.

What everyone's trying to tell you, is that you're on a quest for something that doesn't exist. Your electronics are not a limitation on your system. There's instances where they are for other people. That's usually when they've got speakers that want and can take power.

If you think your speakers are as good as it gets, then your system is as good as it gets.
If you want better, then look where better is actually obtainable.

 

[walter duque]

I have a processor! I am just looking for a better sound that I already have that's all. I am looking for ways to achieve this with various different types of equipment.

Take your speakers and AVR and find yourself a Phase Tech dealer, this PC-9.5 | Phase Technology is what I would recommend. Test these speakers side by side and then tell us what you are lacking. IMO Phase Techs are one of the best speakers on the market, considering their price point. My friend owns the whole system and is powered by Cinepro amps, for that price these speakers just blow me away. Off your speakers, that's the problem, not your pre-amp section.

 

[markw]

My friend owns the whole system and is powered by Cinepro amps, for that price these speakers just blow me away.

Are those the same nitro burning Cinepro amps you're running? The lights dimmed all over Ellenville when you were showing them to Rick and I. People thought Dr. Frankenstein (That's FRONKenstein!) was animating his monster.

 

[GranteedEV]

Are those the same nitro burning Cinepro amps you're running? The lights dimmed all over Ellenville when you were showing them to Rick and I. People thought Dr. Frankenstein (That's FRONKenstein!) was animating his monster.

This sounds awesome...lol

 

[walter duque]

Are those the same nitro burning Cinepro amps you're running? The lights dimmed all over Ellenville when you were showing them to Rick and I. People thought Dr. Frankenstein (That's FRONKenstein!) was animating his monster.

Same Cinepro amps, except he has stacks of them. He is a stockbroker so he can afford them.
Good thing about these Cinepro amps, no heating bill.

 

[puckhead]

If you're thinking about going the separates route, you could go ahead and pick up a power amp to start with -- as already mentioned, you can get a low cost (not low quality sound) option such as an Emotiva UPA-2 (125w/ch), or a pair of UPA-1s (200w/ch), or an XPA-2 (300w/ch). Then just use the pre-outs for the FL/FR on your Pioneer and see if you can hear any differences.

And if you want to try a pre-amp as well (no point buying a pre-amp first) there are also several lower cost options to try (Emotiva USP-1 and Parasound 2100 come to mind). Then just use that with the power amp for your 2-channel listening and you can also tie it into your HT set-up for movies/multi-channel music. Without spending huge chunks of change you'll get an idea of what separates can do and how they compare to your Pioneer in your room with your equipment.

 

[moves]

Take your speakers and AVR and find yourself a Phase Tech dealer, this PC-9.5 | Phase Technology is what I would recommend. Test these speakers side by side and then tell us what you are lacking. IMO Phase Techs are one of the best speakers on the market, considering their price point. My friend owns the whole system and is powered by Cinepro amps, for that price these speakers just blow me away. Off your speakers, that's the problem, not your pre-amp section.

What do these speakers and amps run for?

 

[walter duque]

What do these speakers and amps run for?

Just check out the speakers, forget the amps they don't come cheap unless you know somebody in the business like I do. Here Cinepro 4k6se5 gold amp For Sale | AudiogoN is a used one.

 

[PENG]

I have a processor! I am just looking for a better sound that I already have that's all. I am looking for ways to achieve this with various different types of equipment.

It appears that by now you realize we are in fact trying to respond to your questions. Sometimes people may go a little further in their tone in trying to make a point and remind you that you may be heading in the wrong direction.

I also think most of us have a great deal of respect for Canadian speakers such as the Paradigm Signature series, Energy Veritas (the older models prior to Klipsch/Audiovox), PSB, and of course Totem. In his last post, Grant made it very clear what most of us are trying to tell you, that electronics do not seem to be the limit of your system from sound quality stand point. Try playing some top notch BR concert discs and/or SACD, HD flac files if you have not done so yet, and tell us whether you hear major sound improvements. I can assure you good quality media discs/files will make much more audible sound quality improvements than by simply swapping out some of your electronics that are quite adequate for your speakers.

Now if you have money to spare, as others suggested, go ahead and get yourself a high power amp and/or a preamp and see how that goes. For low cost/good quality amps try Emotiva. For mid range gear, I would suggest Parasound or ATI (highly recommended by ADTG). Mc's are nice but do you really want to spend thousands only to find out they won't do much for you? The do keep their values though so it may not be too bad either.

 

[jinjuku]

That is why parasound was not recommended for it. Lucas Films = large scale which require loud volumes and big rooms.... Have you auditioned speakers with different kinds of amps? If so, maybe you don't see the difference. Also, hearing is unique to everyone. I wouldn't generalize just because you don't see a difference from one amp to the next.

Anyway.... no one has answered the question yet on pre amps...

I have or had:

Pair of Statements
L/C/R Zaph ZDT3.5's
JBL ES90's

Parasound HCA1000A
Crown XLS402D
Behringer EP2500
Behringer A500
Crown DC 300A Laboratory Power Amplifier
Adcom 5503 (just sold it recently)
Denon 4308Ci

So the answer for me at least is: Speakers matter. Speakers matter until you pair them with an amp that is simply underrated for the load you are going to ask it to drive. Then the amp matters.

The Pre-amp isn't driving the speakers directly. It is driving the Amp and in turn the amp is driving the speakers. The Pre is removed by a great single degree of separation.

The suggestion that the Totems you own somehow don't play nice with a particular pre-amp that is sitting on the other side of a power amp is 100% bollocks.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I must try the oral B since you mentioned it. Thanks for the tip!

I don't think he recommended it though. How about the other brands, X, Y, or Z? Report back on your findings, or read a bulletin board see what others are saying.

Lucas Films = large scale which require loud volumes and big rooms....

Not sure what you are saying here about Lucas Films. Who said it requires loud volumes? What if I don't want to? Can I still watch them???

Also, hearing is unique to everyone.

You mean we may not be able to communicate then? Listen to Jazz because it may not be Jazz to me?

Anyway.... no one has answered the question yet on pre amps...

Maybe you are not ready for the answer?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I never said I don't like how my speakers sound... In fact, I love 'em. I just want better. ....

No you don't like your speakers as you want something better.
Perhaps, you don't like your room, the way it sounds? After all, room acoustics is a major factor in sound quality. Perhaps you need to learn about room acoustics and how to improve your room. If that is not possible, get better speakers, period, end of story.
There is no BS factor here at AH. Most like to follow what science tells us is.

 

[GranteedEV]

FWIW, while the guys did answer this, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to quote and answer it:

I've searched and I didn't see threads on this topic so i was wondering if someone can tell me the role of a preamp?

Does it improve sound quality in general?

The role of a preamp is to send a powerful signal, 20-30db above the noise floor, to the amplifier. If you hooked up an amplifier directly to a record player, the noise floor would be amplifier significantly, leading to a thin, incorrect sound.

So you want to send a "preamplified" signal that is louder than the noise in the system. The stronger the signal, the less the amplifier needs to amplifier other noises that aren't part of the signal. Ideally you want minimum gain at the amplification stage.

So it does improve sound quality to have a preamp, but as was stated earlier, your pioneer does technically already have a preamp, although i'm not sure how it specs out measurably.

I'm in no position to tell you whether or not your preamp is good enough, but I can tell you that once you've got good enough, there isn't better.

 

[jinjuku]

I will agree with you that driving them is not difficult. That does not mean that better electronics will not make them sound better.

You will have a point of diminishing returns. Summing a Pre-amp and your receiver with HT Bypass / Tape Monitor is just more in the signal path. But may be how you have to go.

While I like my Zaphs' and they do great for HT, well my HT rig was never going to accommodate a 2.0 system the way a 2.0 system needs to be properly setup. Therefore since I have the space to do a dedicated 2.0 properly I put one in (see my sig). No dedicated pre-amp. I go straight from a Pro-Audio sound card to amp.

Thanks for your reply


*edit* I'd love to demo a parasound amp.

Are we talking about Parasounds amps or pre-amps lacking 'synergy' (what a tortuously used term)?

oh my god... I never said I don't like how my speakers sound... In fact, I love 'em. I just want better. I've got an integrated amp... We all know that separates sound better. \.

I have a processor! I am just looking for a better sound that I already have that's all. I am looking for ways to achieve this with various different types of equipment.

Ok, you love your Totems. What do you desire to be better about them? You HAVE to be thinking something is lacking for the want of having them sound better.

I thought for 2.0 my Zaphs were missing something (while they are perfect for HT). This was a whole list of reasons: Room and placement constraints primarily. Both constraints made me build the ZDT's because they would fit and they would be the most I could get with my budget.

I get into a new house and have a room for 2.0. I know what I was missing (even though they sound great) and I looked at a few designs that on paper were going to meet my listening needs. One of them being shedding the limits of having space that only allowed a skinny speaker.

I wanted something with punch, soundstage width and depth, tactile and present a wall of sound. I have it with my Statements and there is not a day that goes by that I listen to them and think 'I want them to sound better'. They do everything I could have personally wanted and I believe my 2.0 has probably ended with these for the next 15 years or so. I'm driving these with a total out of pocket $700 (computer $500 and pro-audio Crown XLS402D $179).

Think about it: I am driving what many consider the crown jewel of DIY speakers, ones that play in the $10K-$15K and maybe beyond space, with a $170 pro audio mastering grade sound card and a $179 pro audio amp that I picked up on clearance.

I'll leave you with this quote and your statement 'That does not mean that better electronics will not make them sound better':

MarkK from audioheuristics.org

I agree that there are a lot of ways to approach this. It's about flexibility and connectivity as much as "audiophile" aspirations. I stream through the xonar, I stream through the benchmark, meh, most of the time I forget which I'm listening too. Must be the cables...

Look up his website sometime. The Benchmark line of DAC's go from ~$1K to $1900. The Xonar? Under $200.

 

[PENG]

So it does improve sound quality to have a preamp, but as was stated earlier, your pioneer does technically already have a preamp, although i'm not sure how it specs out measurably.

I'm in no position to tell you whether or not your preamp is good enough, but I can tell you that once you've got good enough, there isn't better.

I would agree with you to a point but I don't think it can be generalized. You could in fact skip the preamp if you connect a typical CD player to the power amp via its RCA outputs but you won't be able to control the volume so yes you need a preamp but it does not necessarily improve SQ, in fact in some cases it may go the other way. There are of course players (I have two) that allows you to adjust the output so you can argue they have built in preamp albeit possibly of the passive type. For low output devices such as MC phono cartidges the quality of the preamps will be a major factor.

 

[moves]

Honestly, I don't know what's lacking. I know that I have great speakers and I've heard them with Mcintosh products and they sounded very nice. I can't compare them side by side to my Pioneer. I wish I could. Look, I don't know a lot about the specifics, tech. terms, and I don't know how to read graphs that display different kinds of levels and such... But I do know a good product compared to a better product... Compare a Rav4 to a Audi SUV... The audi is going to be the more comfy ride. Not the exact analogy but you get the point. So why do companies like Mcintosh make their $5k+ amps when someone can go out and buy a cheaper amp like a Yamaha (which is a great product - I used to own one before my Elite) if they don't improve something in your listening experience?

 

[moves]

Try playing some top notch BR concert discs HD flac files

What's a BR concert disc?

 

[walter duque]

Moves
Are you using a sub with these? When you auditioned these maybe they had a sub running and you didn't even know it, it's all possible. 6 1/2" driver, I don't know what you expect? You're not moving no air. My rear surrounds http://www.sourcespeaker.com/LS26.html have 2 6" drivers.

 

[moves]

Bass is good actually.... I run a psb sub for HT but they kick well and tight for stereo music. I don't use a sub for music. I do need to upgrade my sub down the line though for HT... I want a bigger punch! Thinking SVS one day.