Preamp features...Biamping

[Jamil]

Hello. I am new to this forum and any help (from anyone) would be greatly appreciated. I am building a 5.1 system and in search of a preamp. I would really like something that has assignable audio outputs (ie. Parasound Halo C2) so that I have the capability of bi-amping my front 2 for stereo listening. Any one know of such a capable unit? I would love to hear from some C2 owners. I view it as a very fine piece of equipment but I am having issue with the fact that it does not offer video up-conversion. I feel that at this price point it's essential. Any thoughts/suggestions?
Jamil Johnson
North Carolina

 

[j_garcia]

For proper biamping, you will want an external amp. What is the goal? How do you know you need that much power? What speakers?

 

[Jamil]

The goal is to have a complete 5.1 system with the ability to bi-amp front left and right when I decide to listen to music. My system will double as HT and 2ch. It's not that I need that much power, I want it.....my speakers are Kef Q Series.

 

[j_garcia]

If your speakers don't need that power, you are not going to benefit by doing this. That is what I was getting at. Biamping buys you headroom, which will not alter the sound of the speakers, it basically just allows you to turn it up louder before you hear distortion.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver vs. pre-amp

Are you looking for a receiver or a pre-amp? A few receivers will allow you to assign the surround back channels to the fronts for "biamping". If you read up on the "All Channels Driven Falicy" you will discover that there is little benefit to this configuration because the receiver's amp delivers less power when driving 4 front channels then it does with 2 fronts.

Also, any receiver with pre-amp outputs will allow you to biamp the mains using an external amplifier. In some cases, this may provide a benefit inefficient, low impendence mains.

If you go with a seperates solution like the Emotiva UL pre-pro and amp then you can easily use four of the seven monoblock amp channels for the fronts. It sells for $1,100 on AV123.com.

 

[AVRat]

You might also consider the Anthem AVM-30. Not too many Pre/pros offer video upscaling/upconversion. You may unknowingly downgrade the sound of your speakers if they are bi-amped improperly. That is why it is best for most people to use a larger amp, 200W – 350W in your case, to power the entire speaker and let the X-over network do its job.

The new version of Sunfire's pre/pro will have upconversion to component as well as HDMI switching.

 

[sts9fan]

If your speakers don't need that power, you are not going to benefit by doing this. That is what I was getting at. Biamping buys you headroom, which will not alter the sound of the speakers, it basically just allows you to turn it up louder before you hear distortion.

He did not ask if it would make a difference he ask for a reccomendation. What if he is using an electronic X-over and needs active biamping? I am sure he is not but why can't you just give the guy the answer for the question he asked and not a lecture?

 

[Nick250]

He did not ask if it would make a difference he ask for a reccomendation. What if he is using an electronic X-over and needs active biamping? I am sure he is not but why can't you just give the guy the answer for the question he asked and not a lecture?

Because perhaps the poster did not know what a external amp would and would not provide. Perhaps the next person will ask for the best upscale replacement power cord is. Are most members going to let this go without explaining the snake oil of expensive power cords? Of course not. Many are the new posters on this board who don't know what they don't know. I think j_garcia was entirely within norms of this board in his response and provided good information.

 

[Jamil]

You may unknowingly downgrade the sound of your speakers if they are bi-amped improperly. That is why it is best for most people to use a larger amp, 200W – 350W in your case, to power the entire speaker and let the X-over network do its job.

The new version of Sunfire's pre/pro will have upconversion to component as well as HDMI switching.

Interesting....If I may ask a question...As I understand it, bi-wiring improves clarity and over all speaker performance. Assuming that to be true, how is it that bi-amping can degrade those aspects? For clarity I plan to purchase a 7-channel amp and just use 2 of those channels for additional front signals if that is possible. I'm sure I could use Y-adapters, but I just don't care too much for that method.

 

[Sleestack]

Hello. I am new to this forum and any help (from anyone) would be greatly appreciated. I am building a 5.1 system and in search of a preamp. I would really like something that has assignable audio outputs (ie. Parasound Halo C2) so that I have the capability of bi-amping my front 2 for stereo listening. Any one know of such a capable unit? I would love to hear from some C2 owners. I view it as a very fine piece of equipment but I am having issue with the fact that it does not offer video up-conversion. I feel that at this price point it's essential. Any thoughts/suggestions?
Jamil Johnson
North Carolina

I had the Parasound C1... beautiful, but not that special. The A51 was the more impressive of the Parasound duo.

In any case, I decided to go with a pre/pro purely focused on audio. I use the TACT TCS MKII. It has assignable analog and discrete digital outputs, extensive crossover choices and seamless room correction. I use it to bi-amp each of my 3 front speakers, control the crossovers for the main drivers and the sub, and for room correction.

I use my HT system primarily for audio. I never want to run video through my pre/pro, so the fact that the TCS MKII does not offer video up-conversion is not an issue for me. Seems like you are also intent on having a system that excels in audio. The TCS MKII isn't cheap, but if you can swing it, I highly recommend checking it out. It is truly amazing.

 

[jcPanny]

Bi-wiring

Interesting....If I may ask a question...As I understand it, bi-wiring improves clarity and over all speaker performance. Assuming that to be true, how is it that bi-amping can degrade those aspects? For clarity I plan to purchase a 7-channel amp and just use 2 of those channels for additional front signals if that is possible. I'm sure I could use Y-adapters, but I just don't care too much for that method.

I would disagree. There is no audible improvement due to biwiring. It is the equivalent to increasing the gauge of the speaker wire. Any copper speaker wire in the 14-10 AWG range should due fine without biwiring.

Biamping with outboard amplifiers, however, can produce an improvement if your speakers can take advantage of the additional power. What are your mains?

 

[Jamil]

My mains are Kef Q75.2.

 

[j_garcia]

Clarity does not improve unless your speakers are not getting enough power. Simply to say that biamping will give you clarity is an oversimplification and may not actually do what you think it will. Biamping allows less strain on the amp section because it is distributed among more amplifiers each driving lesser loads. This results in an increase in headroom (more available amplifier power) - from which clarity at higher volumes can be achieved up to the point that the speakers (or your ears) can't take it anymore. At your normal listening level, if you weren't straining your amp before during dynamic peaks, you will hear no difference by biamping. When you turn it up however, you will almost definitely hear a difference.

 

[mulester7]

.....but....you can't bi-amp, unless you bi-wire from two amp sections....and doing such allows the speaker elements to not be paralleled, and remain at the ohmage they were designed to function at....when you use the bi-ampable/bi-wireable speaker paralleling the terminal posts plus-to-plus, and minus-to-minus, and only use one run of two-sided speaker wire coming from one amp section, you're actually paralleling two crossovers inside the speaker enclosure and the elements that are connected to the two crossovers....this changes the ohmage and the voice of the elements, does it not?....I say try both methods, Jamil, and let your ears decide.....

 

[Jamil]

So am I after extremely minimal gains? I had this idea because

1. my speakers have that capability
2. The amp that I want to purchase is a 7-channel model
3. I don't have a second "stereo" zone for channels 6&7 and thought I could put them to use

I do not however want to degrade my sound quality. If that's the case I would rather just not use those extra channels...

 

[j_garcia]

Mule, I would guess that's how the speaker was designed though - with the jumper in place. What impedance the drivers are on their own is accounted for in the design to give the resulting speaker a functional nominal impedance.

Jamil, this won't degrade your sound, and since you have the spare amp channels, you can try it and see how you like it. The 6th and 7th channels are for 7.1 for the rear centers.

 

[mulester7]

Mule, I would guess that's how the speaker was designed though - with the jumper in place. What impedance the drivers are on their own is accounted for in the design to give the resulting speaker a functional nominal impedance.

.....total agreement, JGarcia, but we all know what happens when you parallel speaker elements....voices and authority change through an overall ohmage/resistance change....would you say most bi-ampable/bi-wireable speakers with the jumpers being used are assigned a functional nominal impedence of 4 ohms?....not a trick question, just going off the fact there has to be two crossovers inside to be able to bi-amp, now think explosion and resulting fire.....

 

[mulester7]

I would disagree. There is no audible improvement due to biwiring. It is the equivalent to increasing the gauge of the speaker wire. Any copper speaker wire in the 14-10 AWG range should due fine without biwiring.

Biamping with outboard amplifiers, however, can produce an improvement if your speakers can take advantage of the additional power. What are your mains?

.....total agreement, JCPanny, to "only" bi-wire not bi-amping, is a waste of speaker wire and you might as well jump the posts at the speaker and save wire....to add bi-amping to the bi-wiring though, bees a horse of a different color......

 

[Jamil]

So now am I after a good thing or not.....I'm only building a 5.1 system but a 7-channel amp has really struck my fancy. I was just wondering if I could put the other 2 channels to use. You guys are being very helpful by the way....

 

[mulester7]

So now am I after a good thing or not.....I'm only building a 5.1 system but a 7-channel amp has really struck my fancy. I was just wondering if I could put the other 2 channels to use. You guys are being very helpful by the way....

.....ok, Jamil, let me ask this....do you already own the speakers you list in your signature?....and if you do, what are you powering them with now?......