TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'd have to disagree about all speakers being powered. Stuffing an amplifier into a speaker cabinet imposes restrictions with regards to heat and noise that are simply not an issue with a self contained unit that can fit into a rack. Add to that the fact that electronics generally don't like sustained mechanical vibrations (such as those produced by a speaker and transmitted through the cabinet) and you can see where I'm coming from. But the idea of active crossovers and digital equalization? Absolutely. The best possible integration without phase issues can be had with active crossovers. Phase Technology DARTS system is a move in the right direction, imo. The speakers are passive, but utilize an active crossover system that resides in the rack with the rest of your gear. While it might not be up to my standards for true high-fidelity reproduction, I think the concept is great.



But on the subject presented by the OP, the better quality you have heard is most likely due to the reasons put forth by other posters. That said, Abbey Road Studios uses B&W 800D speakers for their monitors. They're not powered, but the speaker itself possesses a flat frequency response, no audible cabinet resonances, and sufficient off-axis response to be useful in a near-midfield environment like a studio control room. A powered speaker is not necessarily higher quality than a passive one. In fact, many powered "studio monitors" are as colored and NOT high-fidelity as any home speaker. The monitors from ADAM are a favorite example of mine. The cabinet resonance colors the midrange to the point that it's laughable, yet they are considered to be quality studio monitors. Maybe that's part of the reason a lot of modern recordings sound like garbage...(that, and the obsession with the compressor as a tool to be used for good sound).
Why does everybody accept a powered sub, and not the rest of the speakers?

The back of a loudspeaker cabinet is an excellent place for a heat sink. The amps will be smaller. The tweeter amp can be a very pure low powered class A. Vibration will not be problem.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Why does everybody accept a powered sub, and not the rest of the speakers?

The back of a loudspeaker cabinet is an excellent place for a heat sink. The amps will be smaller. The tweeter amp can be a very pure low powered class A. Vibration will not be problem.
Well, I'm not everybody, and I don't like powered subs either. So I'm not being inconsistent :p I prefer to have all my amps in a rack, away from my speakers.

Still, with todays high-efficiency amplifiers it's possible to do things right. But not very often have I seen powered speakers that were not compromised performance-wise.
 
D

Davidt1

Full Audioholic
Why does everybody accept a powered sub, and not the rest of the speakers?

The back of a loudspeaker cabinet is an excellent place for a heat sink. The amps will be smaller. The tweeter amp can be a very pure low powered class A. Vibration will not be problem.
I just looked at your system. Wow! Awesome! That youtube bass trap tutorial where the guy said his Mackie powered speakers are flat and stuff sort of steered me to at least explore the potentials of powered speakers. Anyway, I am wondering if I can have 3 powered speakers in the front and 2 regular speakers in the back. My surround speakers are on-wall types and I don't want to change anything. AV123 will have these speakers in the future http://av123.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,212/category_id,40/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,37/ Are they powered speakers?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I'm not everybody, and I don't like powered subs either. So I'm not being inconsistent :p I prefer to have all my amps in a rack, away from my speakers.

Still, with todays high-efficiency amplifiers it's possible to do things right. But not very often have I seen powered speakers that were not compromised performance-wise.
Well I will tell you something, all but a very short thick speaker lead completely negates the damping factor of even the best amplifiers. The LF choke or chokes of any passive crossover negates it too.

Look at Quad, ATC and Meridian for good examples of powered speakers.
 
B

banana23

Audiophyte
Were the speakers used with a sub? Many of the "powered" speaker models dig a little deeper due to a powered woofer module that allow them to extend deeper.

Listening to a powered pair vs. a passive pair with a sub, and your opinion is likely to change...

Powered or passive shouldn't matter if the speakers are built and set up properly.
Actually most of the listening with the active speakers was done without a sub while the passive ones were used with a sub. I guess I should be more specific when I say they sounded "better". I would say that the active models sounded a lot more dynamic and seem to have a lot more slam, which is a characteristic I really enjoy in speakers thus I find them to be "better". I could tell however that, for instance, among the group paradigms seemed to have better highs compared to the other speakers. I guess I'm just confused as to how the monitors could sound more dynamic than passive models despite the amount of amplification used.
 
B

banana23

Audiophyte
I'd have to disagree about all speakers being powered. Stuffing an amplifier into a speaker cabinet imposes restrictions with regards to heat and noise that are simply not an issue with a self contained unit that can fit into a rack. Add to that the fact that electronics generally don't like sustained mechanical vibrations (such as those produced by a speaker and transmitted through the cabinet) and you can see where I'm coming from. But the idea of active crossovers and digital equalization? Absolutely. The best possible integration without phase issues can be had with active crossovers. Phase Technology DARTS system is a move in the right direction, imo. The speakers are passive, but utilize an active crossover system that resides in the rack with the rest of your gear. While it might not be up to my standards for true high-fidelity reproduction, I think the concept is great.

But on the subject presented by the OP, the better quality you have heard is most likely due to the reasons put forth by other posters. That said, Abbey Road Studios uses B&W 800D speakers for their monitors. They're not powered, but the speaker itself possesses a flat frequency response, no audible cabinet resonances, and sufficient off-axis response to be useful in a near-midfield environment like a studio control room. A powered speaker is not necessarily higher quality than a passive one. In fact, many powered "studio monitors" are as colored and NOT high-fidelity as any home speaker. The monitors from ADAM are a favorite example of mine. The cabinet resonance colors the midrange to the point that it's laughable, yet they are considered to be quality studio monitors. Maybe that's part of the reason a lot of modern recordings sound like garbage...(that, and the obsession with the compressor as a tool to be used for good sound).
I can appreciate that very expensive passive models can achieve extremely impressive results as with the B&W 800D, but I am comparing speakers at the same price point. You could even say that in some instances the active were cheaper considering they included amplification though if you threw in the price of a preamp this is a mute point.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I can appreciate that very expensive passive models can achieve extremely impressive results as with the B&W 800D, but I am comparing speakers at the same price point. You could even say that in some instances the active were cheaper considering they included amplification though if you threw in the price of a preamp this is a mute point.
I'm opening up this thread has it has come to my attention late, that the new Klipsch Icon XF-48 powered speaker is now their flagship model.

It is at a very attractive price point.

Here is a review.

It seems as if unfortunately they have slightly miffed it, as the bass is described as warm and yet you can see from Tom Nousaine's measurements, the speaker is not properly diffraction compensated. This is very strange as this is so much easier to do in an active design, than a passive one. Despite this the speaker still sounds warm, so I have to conclude the bass tuning has too high a Qtc.

However the point is this is a major introduction of a speaker whose design concepts are looking to the future in a way that should bring significantly improved performance. As they say, I think this is a "sign of the times". I hope so, and that it encourages other manufacturers to introduce products along similar lines.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
For the record, having the amplification in the speaker or somewhere else doesn't have any effect on the sound quality. The speakers you preferred are simply what you preferred and you would have preferred them with external amplification as well. There isn't any magic to putting the amplifier in the speaker enclosure.

Powered speakers are popular for sound reinforcement because if one amp goes, the other speaker(s) will continue to operate.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
For the record, having the amplification in the speaker or somewhere else doesn't have any effect on the sound quality. The speakers you preferred are simply what you preferred and you would have preferred them with external amplification as well. There isn't any magic to putting the amplifier in the speaker enclosure.

Powered speakers are popular for sound reinforcement because if one amp goes, the other speaker(s) will continue to operate.
Not so! There are very big gains to be had designing speaker drive unit , electronic crossovers and amps as a synergistic unit.

Peter Walker published on this when he was on the design team with Jim Rogers doing the legendary BBC TL monitors. He found among other things significant increase in spl for the same powering. The interaction of bass drivers with the amp without an electronic crossover involved showed dramatic improvement.

I do think this will be the trend, and people will find out how much things improve without passive crossovers.
 
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