Powercords

[gene]

Clint's sound room is done by RPG and Rives Audio.
Ray Adkins, Mark Sanfilipo, Ken Stein and Tom Andry use their own DIY treatments.

I am in transition since I am building a new test facility but will definately have Rives, RPG and Auralex involved since this will be our premier system and test facility.

 

[Buckle-meister]

Clint's sound room is done by RPG and Rives Audio.
Ray Adkins, Mark Sanfilipo, Ken Stein and Tom Andry use their own DIY treatments.

I am in transition since I am building a new test facility but will definately have Rives, RPG and Auralex involved since this will be our premier system and test facility.

Coulda just said yes.

Regards

 

[Bevan]

Gene, do all your reference sytems use the in-box interconnect cables?

b

 

[gene]

Gene, do all your reference sytems use the in-box interconnect cables?

If you mean the cheap patch cord that comes with the electronics, then NO. I use cables that meet our minimal Cable Budget Guidelines . It doesn't take much to meet the basics, but most patch cord just doesn't cut it, especially for video.

I also look for quality terminations that make firm connections, but don't rip off the connectors on the electronics

 

[Pyrrho]

but Pyrro, by your arguing the interconnects that come in the box should also serve us fine?

See:

http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_wire.htm

also, i would bet my bottom dollar that there have been possitive power cords in magazines that dont bear that manufacturers adds.

You seem to have not read all of the reasons I gave previously. That is only relevant to the first reason I gave, and I did not mean that all of the reasons applied to all cases. Each reason applies to some cases, though in many cases, more than one reason applies.

and, i've often read it from the horses mouth that the reviewers simply dont write a review if they think the product a complete waste of money, i.e they write favourable reviews mailny because they screen what they will review beforehand. makes sense to me.

They need a story that makes sense, don't they? Also, if this were true, then it would mean that those who regard these products as a waste of money do not review them. Notice that many reviewers do not review cables.

lastly, i would think that making a living as a magazine reviewer would require some expertise and real knowledge.

cheers

b

You might think that, but if so, you would be wrong. In the U.S., at least, there is no law stopping you or anyone else from deciding to review products. Any moron can write a review. One need only write what will sell; there is no need to write what is true.

 

[Pyrrho]

to do with the price of tea, well, if the manufacturer is not advertising in the magazine, what does the magazine have to loose by a poor review of that manufacturers product?

i believe it was on in stereophiles webpages that i read the question being posed of why the magazine seems to have mainly positive reviews, their answer being that it does not serve anyone to review a knowingly poor product, and going on to say that readers should read between the lines somewhat i.e if a product is not reviewed it might be for good reason. this does not mean that there wont be some relitively poor reviews withing a companies product line. (if it wasnt stereophile dont flame me, but i'm sure some of you would have also read this interview with whomever it was. i'm not making it up for the sake of argument)

mytrycrafts, i did a double blind abx test last week on in-box vs qed qnect3 interconnects and was able to tell the difference. this is why i wonder if there is anything to aftermarket power cables. have you done a db abx test on powercords? to believe either way, on any less evidence than this, would not qualify one as a skeptic in my book. personally i have not yet taken a side in the powerchord debate, i'm merely interested in the possibility, playing the devils advocate, and stating my possibly nieve faith in the not total dishonesty of fellow audiophiles.

respectfully

b.

Please tell us the details of how you conducted the tests. A properly conducted double blind test is not as easy to do as many imagine. (Many people, for example, do not seem to understand the difference between a double blind and a single blind test, though the difference is extremely significant.)

 

[Bevan]

the method i used might not be what is called abx, if abx is to play sample A, then B, then an unknown X and have the listner guess at whether X is A or B. i think this is abx but could be wrong? the problem i had with using this method was that i couldnt think of a way to switch to X without having to take the time to change cables.

i simply had my partner flip a coin(to eliminate any urge to guess on my part or bias on hers) and connect one set of interconnects to the aux-in and one to the cd-in. then i sat in the sweetspot and flicked back and forth between them with a remote. once i had decided which sound i prefered i had her make a note of whether i had chosen the qed cable or in-box cable, then she fliped the coin and swapped(or not) the cables in the back of the amp. i would then repeat my leasurely comparison before guessing at which one was the qed cable. i did this a number of times getting it correct each time.

i think my method is better than the proper abx testing because, as i said, i found the diferences to be so slight that i would not imagine i would have been able to remember them for more than about 5 seconds. never the less the qed cable did sound more 'open' with more trebble extention. i'm sure you will all object to my methodology though

i would like to try another experiment, but between the qed and another 'decent' cable, or another in-box cable in case the one i used was somehow defective. would welcome any suggestions on how to improve my experiment. after another try i promise to rest my case.

b

 

[Pyrrho]

the method i used might not be what is called abx, if abx is to play sample A, then B, then an unknown X and have the listner guess at whether X is A or B. i think this is abx but could be wrong? the problem i had with using this method was that i couldnt think of a way to switch to X without having to take the time to change cables.

i simply had my partner flip a coin(to eliminate any urge to guess on my part or bias on hers) and connect one set of interconnects to the aux-in and one to the cd-in. then i sat in the sweetspot and flicked back and forth between them with a remote. once i had decided which sound i prefered i had her make a note of whether i had chosen the qed cable or in-box cable, then she fliped the coin and swapped(or not) the cables in the back of the amp. i would then repeat my leasurely comparison before guessing at which one was the qed cable. i did this a number of times getting it correct each time.

i think my method is better than the proper abx testing because, as i said, i found the diferences to be so slight that i would not imagine i would have been able to remember them for more than about 5 seconds. never the less the qed cable did sound more 'open' with more trebble extention. i'm sure you will all object to my methodology though

i would like to try another experiment, but between the qed and another 'decent' cable, or another in-box cable in case the one i used was somehow defective. would welcome any suggestions on how to improve my experiment. after another try i promise to rest my case.

b

You should not be in the room while things are changed, nor should you have any contact with the person who made the change before (or while) you are listening. If you see the person, you have a single blind test, and not a double blind test (you are "blind", but the other person is not, so it is not "double" blind). The reason this matters is nicely illustrated with an anecdote. When my wife comes home from work, I know what kind of day she has had as soon as I see her, without her ever saying anything about the kind of day she has had. It seems like I am psychic, but really it is a matter of her facial expression, posture, and any other body language that she may have. If your girlfriend is in the room with you, she may convey the "right" answer without either of you being consciously aware of what is happening. So, it is important that you cannot see someone who knows something, as they can convey information that they do not intend to convey.

Additionally, it must be impossible for you to see the wires, or you may tell from that rather than from hearing them.

Also, you need to be sure that your two outputs are exactly the same level (you also need to be certain that the two inputs are also the same). If they are not, then you may hear a difference based purely on level rather than on quality. And a slight difference in level is subjectively perceived as a difference in quality. This is because human hearing is not linear; as you turn down the volume, the bass and treble appear to diminish faster than the midrange. This is why so many two-channel receivers have a "loudness compensation" switch in which the bass (and often the treble) is boosted, which is intended to be used when one is listening at low volumes.

There is also a possibility that mtrycrafts' suggestion is correct, as there can always be a defective cable, as, for example, an end may not be properly connected to the wire.

The other alternative, the one that you want us to believe, is that the wires made an audible difference. However, we have no reason to accept that until we rule out the possibilities above (though, of course, if mtrycrafts’ suggestion is correct, you may hear a difference due to a defective wire rather than because the design of one of the wires is actually better than the other).

 

[DaveOCP]

For the record, the improvement made by replacing the stock Parasound cord on my amp with a PS Audio "Plus" cable was nothing short of astounding. I dont really care about whether the pro reviewers are all paid to make positive comments or not. I talked to Paul McGowan himself several times, and he explained why his cords are so much better than the stock junk (his custom made plugs and IEC connectors have a lot to do with it) and I could always send it back if I couldnt hear the difference myself. I did not send it back. In my opinion the PS power cord made more of a difference than any interconnect or speaker cable upgrade I've ever made. From the PS site:

"Improvement in wire gauge. Most stock power cables have relatively small wire gauges and can restrict power, especially to power amplifiers and video projection devices.
The quality of the connectors. Most connectors on off-the-shelf stock power cables are made from stamped brass. Brass has a tendency to “barnacle” or build up small protrusions that limit the conducting area of a plug’s connector thus limiting current flow.
Shielding. Most power cables are either not shielded or are poorly shielded. Shielding is important both from incoming noise and from outgoing noise. Most equipment produces EMI on its own and without a shielded power cable these emissions radiate to other equipment.
Quality of the copper inside the cable. Most stock power cords use the lowest possible copper quality to reduce costs. Use of PCOCC and OFC copper can enhance current flow and improve sound and video.
Active cleaning. Properly engineered, ferrite (an iron based material) can reduce noise levels in the AC powerline by small amounts. PS xStream cables are the only power cables in the world with impregnated active ferrite noise reduction materials in their jacket. Some power cables use a lump or 'slug' of ferrite to reduce noise. While this is effective for noise reduction we have found it restricts the sound when not distributed."

Make your own conclusions, but go in to a test with an open mind. If you have already convinced yourself that after market power cords are worthless money pits, then you wont be able to make an unbiased test.

 

[gene]

14AWAG Stock Power Cable should be good enough. As for the connector, I don't buy it. It sounds like you were convinced of the cord by the manufacturer long before it ever showed up at your home. This is common with exotic cables.

The power of suggestion is planted long before the cable is ever installed in a system. Afterwards, they tend to followup by saying "can't you hear the difference, the openness, etc" inferring if you don't your either deaf or your gear isn't good enough to reveal it.

On the other hand, if you perceive a value add with the cord in place, who is anyone to argue?

 

[Bevan]

.....and in the left corner.......we have......... DAVE!

seriously though, i had a read at the link gene kindly posted, and while there was a lot of valuble info that was new to me, it didnt prove as helpfull as i had hoped. reason being..

when people like myself are buying interconnects, we want some peace of mind that our well chosen components are not being brought down by a 'weak link'. so we figure some half decent cables should do, possibly something that has won an award or three. what else can we go on, we're hardly going to insist on an in-store demo. so i pick up the multiple award winnning qed qnect3, the 3rd cheapest in the line. connectors look good(24k gold), twisted just like the article said, dont have any idea about its capacitance though(whatever that may be), likewise for its shielding.
then i spy the qnect1, for half the price. seems to have all the neccesssary features, even has lower capacitance! what to do......
mmm...i remember gene mentioning spending 5-7% of my system cost on cables. well, with the qed silver aniversary speaker cable i just payed for, that would amount to not even 1.7% of my system price. better go for the more expensive qnect3's then, even though that will only bring my total cable costs up to 2.3%. but what happens when i upgrade my system in a few years time to one costing double, then i would have to get some interconnects that cost double? may as well buy them now then...s**t, qed dont even have any more expensive cables then the qnect3, better find me a real hi-end shop.

if any one thinks 2.3% of my system cost on cables and interconnects is too much, that i am wasting my money, maybe you could tell me what meets your mimimum level of acceptability, i.e what exactly are you using.

yeah, what do you guys use?

cheers

b

 

[gene]

i remember gene mentioning spending 5-7% of my system cost on cables.

That actually wasn't the best advice if applied to systems costing high $$$$. Beyond a certain price point, it doesn't make sense to spend those proportions on cables.

For example, a decent interconnect really shouldn't cost more than $40/pair for a 2 meter length, speaker cable $2-3/ft, etc. Spending more will usually get you better cosmetics and/or snob appeal, but NOT a performance edge.

Most of your cable budget should go towards the video side, HDMI, Component Video, etc since at long lengths those do tend to cost significant $$$ and its critical to get ones that perform well. Its funny though, since there is usually much less snake oil surrounding video cables. Probably, b/c the power of suggestion is much influential to the ears than the eyes

 

[DaveOCP]

According to the AWG Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas, 14AWG is good enough for roughly 6A of power transmission (just as a base figure). 10AWG can pass 15A, and 8AWG can do 24A. Additionally DC resistance for 10AWG is less than 1\2 compared to 14AWG, and 1\4 for 8AWG.

In reality the power capabilities should be higher, but for an amp like the Anthem P5 that needs 2 circuits, 30A and 3600W of wall power, I would say 14AWG is definitely not enough.

"As for the connector, I don't buy it. It sounds like you were convinced of the cord by the manufacturer long before it ever showed up at your home. This is common with exotic cables."

Not true at all. You can see how much better the PS plugs are than even "hospital grade" plugs like Marincos or Hubbels just by looking at them. No brass, no screws, no holes. The quality of a connector and the way in which it is connected to the actual conductor (direct soldering in this case) is half the battle with any cable. Comparing the PS plugs to stock cable plugs is like comparing an Eichman silver bullet plug to a Radioshack RCA connector.

When I received the cable, I went into the test very skeptical. I wanted to not like the PS cable so I could send it back, get my $300 back and dismiss the aftermarket AC cord business as bunk like vibra-pods and those little stands for speaker wire to keep them off the floor.

I started with my stock cord and listened to the same track about 5 or 6 times in a row, making notes each time about how particular things sounded, then I swapped it for the PS cable. I was not expecting to hear much, if any difference, but I heard A LOT. I did the same test with the same track and specifically listened for those same points from my original notes, and the difference blew me away. It was like going from an Adcom to a Mark Levinson, the Parasound just sounded like a much better amplifier. I put the stock cord back in once, and I was back with the Adcom, so that was it for the stock cord.

When I talked to Paul again, he did not try to put any ideas in my head at all. He just asked me what I thought, and said that he gets that reaction to his power products quite a lot. I've talked to him quite a bit since then because he seems like a very honest guy who knows a hell of a lot about electrical engineering, and is willing to openly discuss his competition, which is not something you see a lot.

 

[MDS]

I find it funny that anyone would claim that the powercord on a Parasound amp is 'junk'.

It's a major logical inconsistency that I see repeated often. How can you rationalize that high-end, high priced amps are so much better than cheaper alternatives but then claim the power cord is junk. It's akin to the manufacturer saying 'We use only the highest quality parts and rigorous engineering methodology to produce the best amp money can buy, but you'll have to replace the power cord because we just couldn't justify adding $5 to our $5K retail price for a better power cord'.

 

[DaveOCP]

My guess on the retail price of the stock cord would be maybe $10. I'd say its just enough to get by, thats all. I dont think its an unusual practice to skimp on included cords. The DVI cable that came with my Dell 2001FP was also junk. Even though it severly reduces the visual quality of the monitor, why should Dell care when most people wont notice?

 

[mtrycrafts]

For the record, the improvement made by replacing the stock Parasound cord on my amp with a PS Audio "Plus" cable was nothing short of astounding.

Biased perception returns unreliable information. Rather simple.
Since you have a problem with that power cord on that amp, how do you know the amp itself is designed properly? It wasn't by your reasoning. Return that junk and find an amp with the proper power cord attached.

I talked to Paul McGowan himself several times, and he explained why his cords are so much better than the stock junk

Do you really think that HE is in a position to give you an unbiased opinion on this? He has no financial gain from his power cord? You think he would not recommend his??? No, he is as unreliable as the next marketeer, a voodoo salesman after your $$$, nothing more.

(his custom made plugs and IEC connectors have a lot to do with it)


Absolute hogwash!!! You really think he would say otherwise??? And badmouth his own product that he has a financial interest in??? You just don't understand the market place yet and the marketeers behing it.


and I could always send it back if I couldnt hear the difference myself.


Big deal. Is that any guaranty that what he tells you is the honest truth, backed by facts??? Hardly.

I did not send it back. In my opinion the PS power cord made more of a difference than any interconnect or speaker cable upgrade I've ever made.

Yes, your perception is over active. A speaker cable and interconnect, directly in the audio signal path has no effect vs a power cable that has is not even near the audio signal path??? LOL.

From the PS site:

"Improvement in wire gauge. Most stock power cables have relatively small wire gauges and can restrict power, especially to power amplifiers and video projection devices.
The quality of the connectors. Most connectors on off-the-shelf stock power cables are made from stamped brass. Brass has a tendency to “barnacle” or build up small protrusions that limit the conducting area of a plug’s connector thus limiting current flow.
Shielding. Most power cables are either not shielded or are poorly shielded. Shielding is important both from incoming noise and from outgoing noise. Most equipment produces EMI on its own and without a shielded power cable these emissions radiate to other equipment.
Quality of the copper inside the cable. Most stock power cords use the lowest possible copper quality to reduce costs. Use of PCOCC and OFC copper can enhance current flow and improve sound and video.
Active cleaning. Properly engineered, ferrite (an iron based material) can reduce noise levels in the AC powerline by small amounts. PS xStream cables are the only power cables in the world with impregnated active ferrite noise reduction materials in their jacket. Some power cables use a lump or 'slug' of ferrite to reduce noise. While this is effective for noise reduction we have found it restricts the sound when not distributed."

Absolute nonsense, BS, mythology, pseudoscience, run amok. But, the Barnum Effect is proven once again.

Make your own conclusions, but go in to a test with an open mind. If you have already convinced yourself that after market power cords are worthless money pits, then you wont be able to make an unbiased test.

No, go into a test with proper bias controlled protocols. You didn't, you got fooled.

 

[mtrycrafts]

According to the AWG Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas, 14AWG is good enough for roughly 6A of power transmission (just as a base figure).

Nonsense. Check again. My reference book tells a different story from yours. a 14 ga wire is rated for 15A, derated already because of the insulation used. Better insulation more amp capacity, period. Check the National Electrical codes while you are at it.

Additionally DC resistance for 10AWG is less than 1\2 compared to 14AWG, and 1\4 for 8AWG.


So what. resistance halves with 3 ga wire change. Irrelevant.


"As for the connector, I don't buy it. It sounds like you were convinced of the cord by the manufacturer long before it ever showed up at your home. This is common with exotic cables."

Not true at all. You can see how much better the PS plugs are than even "hospital grade" plugs like Marincos or Hubbels just by looking at them.


Ah, you can tell how much current a plug can handle just by looking at them?
That is a real talent you have there. I guess then, those who designed them have no clue.

No brass, no screws, no holes.


HUH??? Irrelevant. Boy, that PS marketeer has you convinced.

The quality of a connector and the way in which it is connected to the actual conductor (direct soldering in this case) is half the battle with any cable.

Absolute nonsense; markleteering only.


Comparing the PS plugs to stock cable plugs is like comparing an Eichman silver bullet plug to a Radioshack RCA connector.

And, this affect audibility how??? ZERO.

When I received the cable, I went into the test very skeptical. I wanted to not like the PS cable so I could send it back, get my $300 back and dismiss the aftermarket AC cord business as bunk like vibra-pods and those little stands for speaker wire to keep them off the floor.

But, you have zero control over your biases. You cannot will it away. Your mind is hard wired. No bias controls in your litening, unreliable perceptions will result. Worthless in this case when so much is riding on the outcome, $300.

I started with my stock cord and listened to the same track about 5 or 6 times in a row, making notes each time about how particular things sounded, then I swapped it for the PS cable. I was not expecting to hear much, if any difference, but I heard A LOT.


No, your mind filled in its expectations, its biases, lack of change and ended up with make belief.

I did the same test with the same track and specifically listened for those same points from my original notes, and the difference blew me away.

Your methodology for listeing is flawed, you got unreliable results as predictable. Same old story, garbage in, garbage out.



It was like going from an Adcom to a Mark Levinson, the Parasound just sounded like a much better amplifier.


Well, amp sound is another subject that can be discussed but, again, poor listeing methods will result in flawed outcomes. No difference.


When I talked to Paul again,


Again, you are talking to the person that has a financial interest in that power cable. What is he going to tell you, that it is just an expensive sugar pill???
Maybe you can ask Paul to document his power cable's capability in improved sound by posting extensive measurements at the audio output of a quality amp of his choice with his power cord and with the stock power cord. NOW that would be more convincing than his pseudoscience.

he did not try to put any ideas in my head at all.

No, of course not. A magician would not tell you what he is doing either.

I've talked to him quite a bit since then because he seems like a very honest guy who knows a hell of a lot about electrical engineering, and is willing to openly discuss his competition, which is not something you see a lot.


If he is honest, have him publish his research in a Peer reviewed journal, or have him publish some measurements at the speaker terminal showing these wonderful improvements. I am psychic and he will tell you that he doesn't have to convince anyone, you just have to listen for yourself.

Unfortunately, hearing and perception are two different animals. Human senses are easy to fool. Just watch a magic show. Or, maybe it is not magic but reality from extraordinary talented people???

 

[gene]

According to the AWG Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas, 14AWG is good enough for roughly 6A of power transmission (just as a base figure). 10AWG can pass 15A, and 8AWG can do 24A. Additionally DC resistance for 10AWG is less than 1\2 compared to 14AWG, and 1\4 for 8AWG.

In reality the power capabilities should be higher, but for an amp like the Anthem P5 that needs 2 circuits, 30A and 3600W of wall power, I would say 14AWG is definitely not enough.

Actually most decent power cables are 14/4 so that winds up being 11AWG equivalent which gets you close to the full power rating of a 120V/15A wall outlet. And when do you run an amp at full power continuously? If you did, and assuming you didn't blow out all of your speakers, trip a circuit, or all of the above, it would likely be beyond the threshold of pain so you wouldn't be able to discern a difference in any magic cable, nor would you likely have any hearing left

Ah and you think you can actually get 3600 watts out of a wall outlet? Hmm, last time I checked the best you could do is 120*15 = 1800watts. What is even more interesting is that most equipment that is UL/IEC compliant must be fuse limited below 15amps to meet safety compliance with respect to arching between the neutral and hot connections.

If it makes you feel better, use 10AWG power cables on all of your high current devices to minimize resistive losses when you run an all channels driven test with a continuous test tone, but don't expect any miracles and make sure you wear ear plugs

As for the power receptacles, I do prefer to use industry/hospital grade ones only because they are more durable, and make a more solid connection to heavy plugs. It also minimizes the risk of accidentally disconnecting a plug via a clumsy foot when getting behind gear for review swap outs

 

[mtrycrafts]

The DVI cable that came with my Dell 2001FP was also junk. Even though it severly reduces the visual quality of the monitor, why should Dell care when most people wont notice?

You tested this with a split screen display, test patterns and double blind??? Or, as you did the power cable, biased and unreliably???

 

[DaveOCP]

"Absolute nonsense, BS, mythology, pseudoscience, run amok. But, the Barnum Effect is proven once again."

Gee, something tells me you hate AC cords, I wonder what would give me that impression. Dont talk to me like I'm an idiot. The amp is an excellent John Curl design that can compete with amps 5x its price. I know, I tried them. The power cord it comes with is lousy. I dont fault either John, his design team at Parasound, or Parasound themselves for that. Its standard practice, just about every amplifier comes with a lousy stock cord. Actually make that every electronic product that comes with any bundled accessories, those accessories are lousy. Why doesnt Sony include their stunning $600 MDR-SA5000 headphones with every portable CD player they make instead of the $1 headphones that come in the box? They sure would make that portable CD player sound a heck of a lot better, and it would only raise the price by $550.

Paul told me what his product does, and why it does it. No BS trademarked "Clean power stage 5 MK II" crap, just this is whats in it and this is why we use that. He asked about what amplifier I was going to use and recommended I try the Plus, his second cheapest cord. He could've easily said "if you want to see a REAL improvement, well then you had better buy our $1200 Ultimate xStream Statement cord" if he was just a scam artist out to make the most money. I bought one to try it for myself. Can you follow me this far, or have I lost you? I love your usage of bad grammar and spelling by the way, classic forum troll all the way.

"Yes, your perception is over active."

Gee, thank you for telling me what my perception of my sound system is, I really had no idea. I said the PS cord made a difference. I did not say that it has a sonic signature like that of a speaker cable or interconnect. I dont buy that certain AC cords have "sounds" to them like you'll read in reviews, I think that is nonsense. What the PS cable provides is a superior link between the Parasound's transformer and the wall outlet, which allowed the amp to really stretch its legs and deliver to 100% of its ability.

This may come as a shock, but I honestly dont care what you think. You can dismiss PS, Richard Gray, Chang, etc. as filthy liars, not my problem. I wont be returning my PS cable, or my RGPC 600s because you say they dont matter. Enjoy your $5 stock cables and wal-mart powerstrips.