Power Manipulation in Dolby Atmos AV Receivers

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
We've noticed a recent trend with the latest Dolby Atmos/DTS:X AV Receiver releases. Instead of publishing unclipped full bandwidth power with at least 2CH driven into 8 ohm loads per FTC mandate, many of the major AV receiver manufacturers are now touting power with only one-channel driven, at 1kHz, into a 6 ohm load at up to 10% distortion. What does this mean? Are you really getting more power with these new receivers or more clever specsmanship?

Read on to find out and be sure to watch our related YouTube video discussion for further insights.



Read: Power Manipulation in Dolby Atmos AV Receivers
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
It is a shame that things go like this. It has been the same for TV refresh rates and many other things as well. Companies just want to make their numbers sound better than their competitors by changing measure and what not, even though their products are similar or even worse.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Basic issue are the significant changes in the distribution channels mainly influenced by the internet...
The neighborhood AV specialist who previously provided local demos, instant product delivery, answered tech questions is now gone and replaced by the internet sellers..
So now the AVR brands need to hype their printed specs to outperform the competition, and then the shopper looks for max power output and lowest price..

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
It's just a numbers game, designed to fool the uneducated (in audio) masses. Nothing new in audio, nothing new from the marketing department from many other products.

Then, the article talks about an AVR that is spec'd on paper at 140W would be more realistic at 100W in the real world, but in simple terms the difference b/w 140W and 100W is not really significant for the end user.

Let me give you a similar example from a different field--astronomy telescopes. Guess what, the HIGHEST USEFUL MAGNIFICATION of a telescope is pretty much the single most useless spec for the entire scope! When you see a telescope that has its main selling point as "500x Magnification!", that is pretty much a guarantee that it is a complete piece of junk. The manufacturer is counting on the uneducated masses seeing that 500x, and saying "wow that must be the best scope". Aperture, focal length, optical coatings, and a solid mount are way more important. And, highest magnification on any given night will always be limited by atmospheric conditions.
 
DML9

DML9

Audiophyte
What some people may call "hype" or "more clever", I called by the more descriptive terms, "deceptive" and possibly, "lying". Audioholics is a highly respected website, and reports such as the above are greatly appreciated. No slack should be given to these manufacturers. They don't "need" to lie, even if lying is "nothing new". I for one am not looking for an AVR with 10% distortion with only one channel. I will walk with my dollars to manufacturers that I can trust. I don't have $6,000 to spend for Classe so I will have to tread a bit further in my search. Thank you Gene and fellow audio enthusiasts for helping me on my journey.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Basic issue are the significant changes in the distribution channels mainly influenced by the internet...
The neighborhood AV specialist who previously provided local demos, instant product delivery, answered tech questions is now gone and replaced by the internet sellers..
So now the AVR brands need to hype their printed specs to outperform the competition, and then the shopper looks for max power output and lowest price..

Just my $0.02.. ;)
And these shops have been replaced by Custom Integrators, who often get new clients through referrals, so we're only a phone call away. Not gonna play 20 questions unless there's some chance of a sale, but the info can be gained locally.

The manufacturers changing their specs is a royal PITA to us in the business, because we constantly have to wade through all of the tech data when we're busy and if a brand we carry does something stupid, it can bite us on the butt. Another problem is tech support departments that don't know more than we do about THEIR equipment- it wastes so much time it's no wonder people are confused.

Marketing departments are great for some things, mostly making promises that can't be delivered. Numbers sell- bigger is better and people always want more, not better.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
And Onkyo was bought by Gibson Musical Instruments, so.....
Besides those brands Gibson also bought Cerwin Vega, Teac, Tascam but now Gibson is in deep financial doldrums..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
And these shops have been replaced by Custom Integrators, who often get new clients through referrals, so we're only a phone call away. Not gonna play 20 questions unless there's some chance of a sale, but the info can be gained locally.

The manufacturers changing their specs is a royal PITA to us in the business, because we constantly have to wade through all of the tech data when we're busy and if a brand we carry does something stupid, it can bite us on the butt. Another problem is tech support departments that don't know more than we do about THEIR equipment- it wastes so much time it's no wonder people are confused.

Marketing departments are great for some things, mostly making promises that can't be delivered. Numbers sell- bigger is better and people always want more, not better.
Yup.. Without the local AV specialist to support the consumer he/she continues to have question after question.. :(
Thats 1 reason we don't do any individual retail sales, all of our audio, video, multi-media, home-automation components are only sold if we install them..

We just take all of these changes in stride since we have had our own retail stores plus shifting to the CEDIA install side. My biggest gripe is the lack of knowledgible technical support, fortunately for us since we also support certain key AV brands in their new product development process for their new models we typically have an inside contact..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
C

chris_w

Audiophyte
Hi Gene

Thanks for blowing this out of the water. - it seems we are going back to the late 70 -80's with false power ratings again.
I know I've argued with you on some points on the asylum in the past, but credit it where it due. Keep it up we need truthful specs -how else can we make comparisons: it has to be apples to apples.
Love the regular postings keep it up. Thanks!!!

Best regards Chris.
 
M

Miro

Audiophyte
What we would do without you guys? We would be lost in the woods. Awesome video on amp's power scams.
Many thanks!!!!!
 
N

nickboros

Audioholic
We've noticed a recent trend with the latest Dolby Atmos/DTS:X AV Receiver releases. Instead of publishing unclipped full bandwidth power with at least 2CH driven into 8 ohm loads per FTC mandate, many of the major AV receiver manufacturers are now touting power with only one-channel driven, at 1kHz, into a 6 ohm load at up to 10% distortion. What does this mean? Are you really getting more power with these new receivers or more clever specsmanship?

Read on to find out and be sure to watch our related YouTube video discussion for further insights.



Read: Power Manipulation in Dolby Atmos AV Receivers
Gene,

This is an excellent article. Unfortunately, amplifier rating from the manufacturer are becoming about as meaningless as contrast ratios from display manufactures. This is why we need to read the Audioholics review to look at real world measurements.

I have a follow up question that I have been thinking about after reading the article last week. Ascend speakers give excellent measurements right on the website for each speaker. Let's say I have some main speakers that are able to take 150 Watts continuously and 300 Watt peaks. Does this mean that I should look for an amplifier that can deliver 150 Watts without distortion and the peaks that occur for a fraction of a second should be still clean? Or do I need to look for an amplifier that can continuously deliver more than 150 Watts cleanly to ensure the peaks are clean? Obviously if I go crazy and get an amplifier than can deliver 300 Watts cleanly in the continuous rating, then it will be clean for the peaks, but do I need to go with that much amplifier?
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Gene,

This is an excellent article. Unfortunately, amplifier rating from the manufacturer are becoming about as meaningless as contrast ratios from display manufactures. This is why we need to read the Audioholics review to look at real world measurements.

I have a follow up question that I have been thinking about after reading the article last week. Ascend speakers give excellent measurements right on the website for each speaker. Let's say I have some main speakers that are able to take 150 Watts continuously and 300 Watt peaks. Does this mean that I should look for an amplifier that can deliver 150 Watts without distortion and the peaks that occur for a fraction of a second should be still clean? Or do I need to look for an amplifier that can continuously deliver more than 150 Watts cleanly to ensure the peaks are clean? Obviously if I go crazy and get an amplifier than can deliver 300 Watts cleanly in the continuous rating, then it will be clean for the peaks, but do I need to go with that much amplifier?

Key point about matching loudspeakers to an amplifier is more than just power handling...
Sensitivity and impedence specs are most crucial, as well as room size and type of source material such as compressed or uncompressed...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
N

nickboros

Audioholic
Key point about matching loudspeakers to an amplifier is more than just power handling...
Sensitivity and impedence specs are most crucial, as well as room size and type of source material such as compressed or uncompressed...

Just my $0.02... ;)
I guess my question of more of a theoretical question, but I was trying to use at least something specific to make things easier for myself to understand. Assume that you have a blu-ray disc will lossless (equivalent to uncompressed) audio. So there can be big dynamic swings, if it is mastered as such. Say that one was listening at reference volume of 85 dB on average with up to 105 dB peaks. Assume the speakers are 8 Ohms. If one can use external amplification to reach reference volume of 85 dB, but 150 Watts is required to do so at the seating distance, then would an amplifier like the Emotiva A-300 which is rated at being able to continuously deliver 150 Watts be able deliver the larger peaks cleanly (without clipping, in other words less than 1% THD)? If you ask this amp to deliver maybe 160 or 170 Watts continuously you will likely begin to run into distortion, but do these very quick peaks for a fraction of a second possibly drive such an amplifier into clipping or is it usually okay?
 
N

nickboros

Audioholic
I was looking at some of the nice and detailed measurements for various amps at Audioholics. The Outlaw 5000 amp can sort of do this. It can deliver 170 Watts continuously and cleanly into a 2 channels where the speakers are 8 Ohms, but the peaks can only get up to about 230 Watts right at the threshold of clipping. If it were a 6 Ohm speaker it can deliver about 200 Watts continuously and cleanly into 2 channels with about 310 Watt peaks that are right at the threshold of clipping. So if we take the Ascend Sierra 2s, which are 6 Ohm speakers and can take 150 Watts continuously and can handle peaks of up to 300 Watts, then this Outlaw amp would be a nice pairing, if external amplification is needed depending on room size and how far one is sitting away from them. If one expects to sometimes drive the speakers close to those 300 Watt peaks, then maybe a slightly more robust amplifier would be needed if one wants to drive more than just two Sierra 2s off of this amplifier.
 
P

Pace

Audiophyte
I waited for gene to test one these pioneer d3 based receivers to see how they perform on the bench, but as it appears that it is never going to happen, I thought I share one that I found online that has full bw tests of the class d3 amplifiers: http://i.nextmedia.com.au/Assets/Pioneer_SC-LX89_AHF.pdf

While it is an older model, I doubt much has changed for these newer onkyo, integra and pioneer receivers (except for the two extra channels). And one thing that this article would appear to show is that the high frequency power output isn't really issue with these amplifiers, nor is the power output in general; I don't think there are many other receivers capable of posting 1/2/7-channel output figures seen in that review.

When I last visited this site about a year ago I was considering getting a TX-RZ1100 (found the "inflated power figures" article when looking for info on it) and based on reviews elsewhere I decided get one about 6 months ago and I have been really happy how it handles my fairly extensive use (up to 15 hours a day) in a relatively confined space driving my KEF R700+R300 setup with ease while remaining cool; one of my concerns when reading about traditional class AB receivers.
 
Last edited:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I waited for gene to test one these pioneer d3 based receivers to see how they perform on the bench, but as it appears that it is never going to happen, I thought I share one that I found online that has full bw tests of the class d3 amplifiers: http://i.nextmedia.com.au/Assets/Pioneer_SC-LX89_AHF.pdf

While it is an older model, I doubt much has changed for these newer onkyo, integra and pioneer receivers (except for the two extra channels). And one thing that this article would appear to show is that the high frequency power output isn't really issue with these amplifiers, nor is the power output in general; I don't think there are many other receivers capable of posting 1/2/7-channel output figures seen in that review.

When I last visited this site about a year ago I was considering getting a TX-RZ1100 (found the "inflated power figures" article when looking for info on it) and based on reviews elsewhere I decided get one about 6 months ago and I have been really happy how it handles my fairly extensive use (up to 15 hours a day) in a relatively confined space driving my KEF R700+R300 setup with ease while remaining cool; one of my concerns when reading about traditional class AB receivers.
Wow Pioneer has greatly improved its Class D amps since they dropped the ICE module according to this report. What an excellent test report I might add! thanks for sharing this. Now it makes me want to review a Pioneer/Onkyo receiver.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Wow Pioneer has greatly improved its Class D amps since they dropped the ICE module according to this report. What an excellent test report I might add! thanks for sharing this. Now it makes me want to review a Pioneer/Onkyo receiver.
Gene..
The Pioneer uses an International Rectifier Class D solution...
A couple of years back, IR introduced an incredible driver IC with protected PWM switching. Also since they supply the bulk of the MosFets devices, they can deliver a very price competitive Class D solution package including driver and fets for any power output level up to 500W/channel... FOB material cost was 45% lower than the ICE power solution.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
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