Power feed???

[mouettus]

I just read an interesting thread about speaker upgrading. The conclusion of all this was that you have to power your speakers effectively in order for them to sing like they were made to. So now here's the question: how can you know how much power to give to your speakers without going overkill? Is a high-end receiver enough or separates are needed for 100% performance?

Now I truly think that my HTR-5740 is the weak link in my system. I listen most to alternative metal like Nickelback and some harder stuff. Look at my signature and you'll see my setup. But as my speakers are already very bright, I feel I should go with NAD, HK or maybe Marantz. Could someone give me a good example of what should feed my speakers for optimal performance??

 

[Nick250]

I ran accross this page recently. It may help you some, it may not. It's an interesting read in any case.

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio/20031101.htm

 

[Tomorrow]

I ran accross this page recently. It may help you some, it may not. It's an interesting read in any case.

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio/20031101.htm

This article is a fine primer, Nick. Good find. And it fits nicely with our discussion in the 'Speaker Upgrade' thread.

 

[mike c]

how many wpc is that 5740?
does it have pre-outs?

your Rti8's only have two 6.5" inch drivers + tweeter, you might not need a separate amp at all ... (or at least not that big, 120-150w would be fine especially with a sub)

 

[mouettus]

how many wpc is that 5740?
does it have pre-outs?

your Rti8's only have two 6.5" inch drivers + tweeter, you might not need a separate amp at all ... (or at least not that big, 120-150w would be fine especially with a sub)

Doesn't matter how many wpc my 5740 is cuz I think its rated at 110!! You know how they can be with power ratings... All I know is that at medium to high levels, my speakers cry!! I know they're capable of more cuz I auditioned them with an HK7300!

What would you recommend in terms of equipment? I hate receivers with bells and whistles. Give me something with good SQ, decent look and enough power.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Doesn't matter how many wpc my 5740 is cuz I think its rated at 110!! You know how they can be with power ratings...

How are they with the power ratings, please explain.


All I know is that at medium to high levels, my speakers cry!!

Not sure what a crying speaker sound like. I know what a child sounds like when they cry and some adults. Speakers? Have zero idea. Perhaps an explanation that is more useful would help?


I know they're capable of more cuz I auditioned them with an HK7300!

Was that before or after you have had your amp?


What would you recommend in terms of equipment? I hate receivers with bells and whistles. Give me something with good SQ, decent look and enough power.

Well, that is what a receiver is about, lots of capability and flexibility.
But, I doubt you really know that you have a real problem.
What sound levels do you listen to? Maybe past practices has caused hearing loss?

 

[mouettus]

How are they with the power ratings, please explain.

...not too conservative. Let's say my receiver is rated at 110wpc and I could have WAY better sound quality with a 100wpc power amplifier

Not sure what a crying speaker sound like. I know what a child sounds like when they cry and some adults. Speakers? Have zero idea. Perhaps an explanation that is more useful would help?

They're getting harsh --> produce distortion

Was that before or after you have had your amp?

Before. When I bought the speakers at the store they were hooked on a 7300

But, I doubt you really know that you have a real problem.

What do you think it is then?

What sound levels do you listen to? Maybe past practices has caused hearing loss?

I always listen music at high levels... even in my car. No known hearing loss yet (or just maybe when I go 15feet underwater ). I can tell you that I like my receiver level at -10/-15dB but it won't give you much of an idea.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
They're getting harsh --> produce distortion

Maybe the speaker itself is over taxed and not the amp? After all, speakers produce much more distortion, especially as volume is increased.

What do you think it is then?

Would need more experimentation.

I always listen music at high levels... even in my car. No known hearing loss yet (or just maybe when I go 15feet underwater ). I can tell you that I like my receiver level at -10/-15dB but it won't give you much of an idea.

Well, that -10 to -15 is meaningless but spl levels would help a lot better. And those high levels will catch up to you soon enough.
Maybe you are exceeding the design limits of some of the components?

 

[mike c]

if the receiver has pre-outs ... you can just add an external amp, unless you have money to burn, you can't (or shouldn't) hear a difference between a pre-amp and a receiver acting as a pre-amp.

if you're only gonna power the Rti8's ... a Rotel RB1070 (120wpc) would be sufficient. if that's off budget, the behringer amps have gotten pretty good reviews.

 

[Nick250]

All I know is that at medium to high levels, my speakers cry!!

Mouettus I read through this thread again, and what you are describing really sounds like a speaker/room acoustics issue not watts. I think you may have been led astray but the article you mentioned that you need a lot of power for your speakers to sing. As you mentioned, your speakers are bright anyway. I know this sounds overly simplistic but have tried turning down the treble?

 

[mouettus]

And those high levels will catch up to you soon enough.

Yes moooooom!

I know this sounds overly simplistic but have tried turning down the treble?/QUOTE]
You ain't talking with a n00b. Yes I've adjusted the treble a lot of times, trying lots of combinations. And it can't be an acoustic problem since I've tried 3 other different rooms in my house with different sizes, shapes and materials, with nearly the same result every time.

Thx for helping

 

[PENG]

Doesn't matter how many wpc my 5740 is cuz I think its rated at 110!! You know how they can be with power ratings... All I know is that at medium to high levels, my speakers cry!! I know they're capable of more cuz I auditioned them with an HK7300!

What would you recommend in terms of equipment? I hate receivers with bells and whistles. Give me something with good SQ, decent look and enough power.

According to the manual, the 5740 is rated for 85 W RMS per channel 20 to 20,000 Hz at 0.06%. Anything higher they quoted are dynamic IHF ratings, not RMS. That should still be enough for the RTi8, but at this level I believe more power is better, whether you could notice the difference or not. It doesn't look like the 5740 has preouts so if you insist on giving the Polks more power you would have no choice but to upgrade to something like a Yamaha RX-V1500, or HKAVR630 (if you can still find them), since you don't seem to care about the bells and whistles.

I have heard the RTi8 paired with HK receivers, they did fine with even a HKAVR230. The 230 actually has less power than the 5740 in 2 channel mode, so I, like others, also don't think power is your no.1 problem. Something else is not right if you are getting harsh sound at -15 dB. You may want to check your level setting in case you have them inadvertently set to a much higher level than 0.

 

[mouettus]

So you think the problem is just the way the speakers sound?

 

[PENG]

So you think the problem is just the way the speakers sound?

If you ask me, no. You can't find too many speakers as good as the RTi8 at their price point. They don't sound harsh, or even bright to me. I suggested you double check all your settings, i.e. level, XO, EQ, time delay/distance etc. Do they sound nice to you at normal listening level (I mean for the average person)? If so, and then it becomes harsh sounding, then may be more power could help.

If it sounds harsh most of the time, may be try another source/CD player etc. Mind you even if the source is the problem, it may still appear to be less harsh if you listen at a lower volume. Your Yamaha has some decent spec but at that price point, IMHO you are not near the point of diminishing return yet.

 

[mouettus]

I suggested you double check all your settings, i.e. level, XO, EQ, time delay/distance etc.

I've had this equipment for more than a year now. I've read the manual several times and did plenty of listening tests to tune up my receiver/speakers. Nothing seem to have an effect on my problem.

Do they sound nice to you at normal listening level (I mean for the average person)? If so, and then it becomes harsh sounding, then may be more power could help.

That's EXACTLY what I mean. At normal listening level, they sound awesome. But when I crank it up, that's when they're coming harsh. I'm pretty sure it's distortion. So I really think that giving them some power would be awesome. I'd buy a 2-channel power amp just for music listening. In movies the sound is great cuz when you have high SPL sound, you only need peak power. So it all returns to my thread question: how much power do I need? (I don't want to overkill). Furthermore, my receiver isn't even equipped with preouts so I really need an upgrade.

If it sounds harsh most of the time, may be try another source/CD player etc.

Done. I have 4 different players including an LG, Toshiba, portable cd player and a computer

 

[AVRat]

It really does sound like the lack of clean, potent power is the issue. For the Polk RTi series, a mid-level receiver should be the minimum for decent performance. Perhaps one of last years models if the budget is tight. BTW, how big is your space?

 

[mtrycrafts]

It really does sound like the lack of clean, potent power is the issue. For the Polk RTi series, a mid-level receiver should be the minimum for decent performance. Perhaps one of last years models if the budget is tight. BTW, how big is your space?

All his speakers are 8 ohm rated. The spec sensitivity is from 88 for the rears to 90 for the fronts, not specified if that is in room or anechoic. In room is +4 of anechoic and it is a good bet the 90 is anechoic. So, those are plenty sensitive to be plenty loud even from that amp.

 

[mike c]

i seem to remember buckeyefan mentioning that his Rti 10 (spec'd at 8ohms)
measured 6 or 4 ohms

 

[PENG]

i seem to remember buckeyefan mentioning that his Rti 10 (spec'd at 8ohms)
measured 6 or 4 ohms

The RTi10 is 4 ohms minimum but 8 ohms nominal. I heard the 10 as well and I did find them power hungry. A mid price receiver such as a HKAVR630 would be needed to make them sound reasonably well. The RTi8 on the other hand, are not that hard to drive. Still, the way mouettus described his problem, power does seem to be a prime suspect. Hard to explain though, as his receiver seems to have enough power.

 

[PENG]

At normal listening level, they sound awesome. But when I crank it up, that's when they're coming harsh. I'm pretty sure it's distortion. So I really think that giving them some power would be awesome. I'd buy a 2-channel power amp just for music listening. In movies the sound is great cuz when you have high SPL sound, you only need peak power. So it all returns to my thread question: how much power do I need? (I don't want to overkill). Furthermore, my receiver isn't even equipped with preouts so I really need an upgrade.

Sounds like you have tried everything. A couple more questions, how long are your speaker wires, and what size. Have you tried and make sure your receiver is plugged into a 120V circuit that does not have anything else on it, e.g. high power Halogen lights, window A/C, dehumidifier etc.

As to how much power do you need, based on your current experience, you cannot have too much power. However, if you don't want to overkill, try something that offers 80 to 100 WPC with so called high current capability. A RX-V1500, or Denon 2805 should do it. You should be able to get a good deal on them. The 630, 635 from HK are good too but only if you are in the U.S. You can also ask Polk via email. They typically response within a day or two.