J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
gene said:
So what's the problem :rolleyes:
I aint gotta problem...youze gotta problem??

gene said:
LOL. I luv ya man :)
Ewwww..don't get all gushy on me...yuk..

You've stated your experience...nothing to report via PC effects..

Fine and dandy.

I've stated a link between supply haversines and input ground induced errors..

Again, fine and dandy.

You cannot claim it doesn't exist, which is ok..that is a general rule for proof of lack of existance.

It is of course, up to me to demonstrate the effect I speak of..perhaps someday I'll get off my big fat... Keester and prove it.

It is, of course, not a priority of mine. I have bigger fish.

How's it going, Gene? Long time no talk..

Hope all is well.

Cheers, John
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
You've stated your experience...nothing to report via PC effects..

Fine and dandy.

I've stated a link between supply haversines and input ground induced errors..

Again, fine and dandy.

You cannot claim it doesn't exist, which is ok..that is a general rule for proof of lack of existance.

It is of course, up to me to demonstrate the effect I speak of..perhaps someday I'll get off my big fat... Keester and prove it.


Cheers, John
John;

You should be writing for Star Trek Man ;) I of course am looking forward to you proving some of this stuff out for us. I am still waiting on the Speaker Cable 5usec lateralization thingamajig you were working on awhile back. Any progress?


How's it going, Gene? Long time no talk..
Things are going well over here, though I am always finding more work to do than I have time for. Lurking on forums of course doesn't help either ;)

I hope all is well on your end too.
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
Sarius said:
I found this link, which I think would satisfy most criteria of valid expermentation.
Yeah, that was a nice test. Really rattled a few cages on some other forums. But, if you delve into the test methodology, you'll find a lot of flaws ( I think even Mtrycrafts will agree). A db test or dbx type requires much more rigorous controls then exihibited. My major complaints are too much time is spent switching out cords, all the variables of performing the test in someones living room, they all look like they'd rather be somewhere else.

You cannot run an effective blind audio test in someones home. You need/require a controlled environment. Basically, anyplace that has forced air movement should be disqualified with one major exception:

Testing PCs and ICs and components with headphones (no speakers or speaker cables to get in the way).
 
S

Sarius

Junior Audioholic
Mudcat said:
.......... A db test or dbx type requires much more rigorous controls then exihibited. My major complaints are too much time is spent switching out cords, all the variables of performing the test in someones living room, they all look like they'd rather be somewhere else..........

You cannot run an effective blind audio test in someones home. You need/require a controlled environment.........
Well, of course you're right. But then, after years of running all types of tests and experiments, I can tell you that the 'perfect' test exists only in lecture notes and textbooks. Grubby reality and Mr. Murphy always seem to want to stick their thumbs in!

At best, you try to figure out what the worst confounds might be and attempt to minimize them. The fact that the results were not what the experimenter seemed to expect seem to indicate that they controlled bias and the effect of experimenter expectations pretty well. I give him major points for intellectual honesty as well:)

As far as the cable switching issue. While you're right, it really was a no win. Had they set up some sort of switching matrix, then they'd have been open to the criticism that it was filtering/obscuring/removing all the sonic goodness that otherwise would have been there. In truth, we all compare stuff in our own systems and typically it takes a heck of a lot longer to make the switches. Same with pretty much every review I've seen, so this wasn't a bad compromise.

BTW- the folks that were just doing the B-X comparison probably had it right. If X didn't sound like B, then by default it has to be A.

In any case, while containing some flaws, this seems to be the best information on this subject out there, at least that I've found to date.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
gene said:
John;

You should be writing for Star Trek Man ;) I of course am looking forward to you proving some of this stuff out for us. I am still waiting on the Speaker Cable 5usec lateralization thingamajig you were working on awhile back. Any progress?.
Star Trek..Gene, you have no idea.

I built some hardware for a customer that is in that Star trek realm. I am "bitterly" awaiting their releasing publication of the performance of my widget in a co-authored paper. They are in "violent" competition with another group, and there is a possibility a Nobel could be involved. This secrecy stuff, while interesting, is a PITA!!! It prevents publication of my really cool work.

Lateralization is the discerning of a virtual image via headphones, the image being located within the head along the lateral line.

Localization is the discerning of a source of sound within the 2 dimensional space surrounding the head.

I have made significant inroads into understanding the physics of localization in 2-D space, understanding the limitations of current mixdown technology, created a mathematical model for generating the correct localization cues for the stereo mix (as opposed to pan pots on the mixing console), and am currently theorizing the inverse matrices required to compensate for the fixed angle ITD/IID resulting from the use of two point sources (speakers) for the creation of a virtual source image.

Since I do a lot of my work in the shower (I've always kept my life on the front burner, this audio stuff is fill in), I progress at whatever rate I choose.

gene said:
I hope all is well on your end too.
All is indeed quite well, thank you.

Just finished one magnet project... am working on a second prototype magnet for a project which is slated to turn on in 2020 (give or take)...the first performed 100% over specified requirements...got two more customers in serious discussion with a third in the wings..and just finished a 90 foot trench and dwv pipe for controlling roof runoff just in time, 3 inches predicted tomorrow.

If I can avoid making extremely stupid mistakes like hanging a 16 ounce hammer by it's claw at the top of a 30 foot extension ladder (then moving it), I will continue to be fine. The bruises are almost gone..

Cheers, John
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Sarius said:
I found this link, which I think would satisfy most criteria of valid expermentation.
Thanks for providing that link. I had seen it before, but had forgotten it. I guess I wasn't very interested in whether power cords have an audible effect. The article is more interesting as a demonstration of how difficult it is to run a blind listening test. It is time consuming and difficult for the listeners to remain attentive, especially when comparing items like power cords which may, at best, have only quite subtle differences. For all their effort, they had results from only 9 listeners, which is a small enough sample to severly limit broad conclusions.

Despite its flaws, it may be among the better published blind listening tests of any audio gear. The Toole and Olive tests of speakers remain the best example I know of.

I especially liked the questionaire shown at the end of the article. It addressed the question of whether a listener's prior experience, attitudes, beliefs and expectations had any effect of the results of the test. The answer for those 9 listeners was a resounding NO.

What would be nice to see in the future, if anyone cares to stage his own blind listening test, are the addition of both positive and negative controls in the test. A negative control is easy to imagine. Use the same power cord for an A-B comparison. How many listeners report hearing a difference for a negative control would be the false-positive rate or background noise of the listening test. By positive controls, I mean listening trials that answer the question how many listeners report hearing a difference when one really does exist. Suitable positive controls could measure how many false-negative responses were in the test. I have seen listening tests that included a negative control, but I have never seen one with any positive controls.

I don't know what kinds of comparisons would be good positive controls, but imagine a series of veils draped over a speaker. Remove each veil, one by one, to see how many listeners can hear the difference. Obviously the veils are only my poor attempt here at describing a good positive control. Any one got some suggestions?

Positive controls (some obviously different sounding and some more subtle) might also provide welcome relief to the fatigue that listeners experience when subjected to a series of A-B comparisons that all sound very similar if not the same. Listeners need that mental reward for actually hearing a difference during the test. If they got to hear some A-B tests that were clearly different, they might fatigue more slowly, and be more confident of their responses to A-B tests where they heard no difference.

Positive controls could help argue against the criticism of short-term blind listening tests that subtle differences in sound due to different power cords can only be heard after long-term listening. It could provide a direct measure of just how many listeners could actually hear a series of genuine differences that spanned a range in difficulties.

A suitable positive control test would also be an important measure of the effectiveness of the audio gear used in the test and of variability among individual listeners. A listener who answers yes to the positive controls and no to the negative control would be considered as most reliable in the power cord test. The fraction of listeners who meet these conditions, regardless of their answer to the power cord test, might be considered as a measure of validity for the whole experiment. Ideally, all listeners would hear a difference in the positive control and none would hear a difference in the negative control test. However, it is possible to deviate from the ideal and still make useful conclusions, as long as suitable controls are included for each listener to determine the frequency of false negative and false positive responses.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Mudcat said:
Yeah, that was a nice test. Really rattled a few cages on some other forums. But, if you delve into the test methodology, you'll find a lot of flaws ( I think even Mtrycrafts will agree). A db test or dbx type requires much more rigorous controls then exihibited. My major complaints are too much time is spent switching out cords, all the variables of performing the test in someones living room, they all look like they'd rather be somewhere else.

You cannot run an effective blind audio test in someones home. You need/require a controlled environment. Basically, anyplace that has forced air movement should be disqualified with one major exception:

Testing PCs and ICs and components with headphones (no speakers or speaker cables to get in the way).

This is what I was looking for as well; not sure why it is not in my book marked section:mad: But, who knows how I labeled the link now;)

Ye4s, it is easy to find flaws. I just wish the same amount of effort would be spent on finding flaws in sighted comparisons:D
Ones home is a good place to test, especially if it is the 'golden ears' home. One less excuse later.
Same for the time delay in swapping that would just reduce the Echoic memory. However, that never stopped a 'golden ear' in a sighted comparison:D It may even eliminate another excuse, the switcher masking the differences:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
jneutron said:
Lateralization is the discerning of a virtual image via headphones, the image being located within the head along the lateral line.

Localization is the discerning of a source of sound within the 2 dimensional space surrounding the head.
Cheers, John

After re-reading that paper on this, this is what I gathered. So, lateralization would not be an issue with loudspeakers, no? Only localization.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
After re-reading that paper on this, this is what I gathered. So, lateralization would not be an issue with loudspeakers, no? Only localization.
Correct.

It's just a definition thing.

What I believe would be interesting is: If we mixdown using the natural ITD/IID parameters to define image location, will the product cause headphone imaging to leave the lateral line?

How's it going, Mtry? Long time no speakie..

Cheers, John
 
Resident Loser

Resident Loser

Senior Audioholic
Hey John...

...looks like the props went into a stall eh?

Went back to the slide-show...much ado about nothing IMHO...looked impressive with all the biology 'n' such, didn't seem to say too much when all was said and done...to quote some other lines from the DK movie "...I can shoot and I can toot...ain't I cute..."

Lotsa' those folks seem bent on impressing the easily impressed...

jimHJJ(...they may all be there for one compelling reason...)
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Resident Loser said:
...looks like the props went into a stall eh?...
Yup. It would appear that he started to come to the realization that continued discussion with me would start to impinge on the assertions he made within the slide show..That would look bad..so he shut down.

Tis a shame, as I was going to raise the spectre of the classic DBT regimen being incapable of localization based change discernment. That woulda been fun.

Resident Loser said:
...Went back to the slide-show...much ado about nothing IMHO...looked impressive with all the biology 'n' such, didn't seem to say too much when all was said and done...to quote some other lines from the DK movie "...I can shoot and I can toot...ain't I cute..."...
What impressed me the most was this...

"2004"

Ummmm, isn't this 2006??

Sheesh, I don't even remember half the papers I was involved in from 2004.


Resident Loser said:
...Lotsa' those folks seem bent on impressing the easily impressed...
Yup.

Cheers, John
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
jneutron said:
How's it going, Mtry? Long time no speakie..

Cheers, John

Yes, been before a trip of yours;)
I am hanging in, like an old fixture:D
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Yes, been before a trip of yours;)
I am hanging in, like an old fixture:D
Oh yah, that trip..

I was utterly amazed at a coupla things there.

First, there are building cranes everywhere...and I mean, everywhere. I recall reading that China is consuming a third of the concrete made on the planet.

Second, traffic and pedestrians...it's total chaos, utter anarchy. I am amazed more people aren't killed in the street, that red light "thingy" you find at the intersections...appears to be only a suggestion.

Third, the air pollution in Beijing is not to be believed...it kept my plane at the gate for 90 minutes due to visibility issues..

Whoa..

But the food was good, and very inexpensive.

Cheers, John
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
jneutron said:
Oh yah, that trip..

I was utterly amazed at a coupla things there.

First, there are building cranes everywhere...and I mean, everywhere. I recall reading that China is consuming a third of the concrete made on the planet.

Second, traffic and pedestrians...it's total chaos, utter anarchy. I am amazed more people aren't killed in the street, that red light "thingy" you find at the intersections...appears to be only a suggestion.

Third, the air pollution in Beijing is not to be believed...it kept my plane at the gate for 90 minutes due to visibility issues..

Whoa..

But the food was good, and very inexpensive.

Cheers, John
Maybe one day they will realize that clean air is important?

Just think, 1.6 billion people want to enter the 21st century in a hurry. Lots of catching up, lots of new construction. Hope they don't destroy their country and the plane while they trying to catch up.
 
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