Power Cord Testing

[Sarius]

There seems to be an amazing about of arm waving about power cords with very little real investigation as to what, if anything, might be happening when one changes out the cords on the components. In fact, so far, I have not yet been able to find a single worthwhile test of various cords that might indicate a difference OR indicate there is no differences. There is quite a bit of consistent anecdotal evidence that something is happening when different cords are introduced into a system. As we (should) know, a consistency of observed phenomena is the starting point of scientific investigation.

It does seem that there would be a rather simple experiment that could be run if one had the proper equipment that would at least indicate if there was any cord to cord variance that might be worth looking into. That is, if one took a fairly powerful amplifier and put probes on its internal terminals where the power cords came in, then had it play various demanding pieces of music while monitoring the incoming waveform in both the time and frequency domains. Ideally you want to see a textbook perfect 60 hz sine wave that didn't vary in amplitude no matter what the amp was doing and free from any higher frequency additives. If one did see any variance from this ideal, then one could look to see if the higher price/technology cords seemed to improve this any and quantify by how much. If one could detect no changes in the incoming wave forms from cord to cord, then you'd be on solid ground claiming that sonic differences would be impossible. If there were notable differences between various power cords, then there would be grounds for further investigation.

I would suggest that this might be well worth doing and hope that someone with the proper lab set up will look into this as it does seem that there is entirely too much smoke and not near enough light on a component that seems to account for a several million dollar a year market.

If anyone can point me toward some decent laboratory testing of 'audiophile' powercords vs stock, I would be greatly appreciative. My searches, including this site, have failed to find any good investigation about this- just unsupported claims from both sides.

 

[Geno]

As a 30+ year electronics technician and audio enthusiast, I believe the reason you can't find any valid testing on the subject is because there isn't any. I just roll on the floor in incredulity when reading glowing accounts of "veils being lifted" from equipment after a $500 power cord is substituted for the stock cord.
This subject belongs, IMHO, in the same catagory as esoteric interconnects, speaker cable lifts, CD sound-enhancing sprays, civilizations at the center of the Earth, and Government Intelligence.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

 

[alan monro]

where did you find the infomation about power cords? it is just a rip off on the consumer by crook dealers forget power cords . forget the rubish you have read or heard and enjoy your audio system. kind reguards alan

 

[mtrycrafts]

As we (should) know, a consistency of observed phenomena is the starting point of scientific investigation.
:

???

What observed phenomenon? How is this different from speaker wire, actually in the audio signal path, unlike a power cord. Or, interconnects, or the rainbow foil from the Belt family, or, those telephone poles to lift the speaker wires, or any of the audiophile phenomenon.
For that matter, there are absurd, consistent phenomenon in many/all consumer marketplace that never is tested because we can sort through the bizarre and not waste the time.

While this page of DBT is in Spanish, google will translate it for you, showing null results with most components that should show audible differences, a power cord would be on a higher platform for consideration?

http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient-menuext&hl=en&u=http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm


Apparently another link to a power cord DBT is disabled.
A waste of time.

But, please, by all means, investigate. There may be something there besides snake oil, and the power of the human mind to imagine.

Some other reading:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_thread/thread/a228daa638a05a42/e0df45a47de03cc6?lnk=st&q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+and+power+cables&rnum=1#e0df45a47de03cc6
Especially the last paragraph

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.tech/browse_thread/thread/fd489d20789b4ac4/fd7d5fa89f2ce0fc?lnk=st&q=author:DPierce@world.std.com+and+power+cables&rnum=4#fd7d5fa89f2ce0fc

 

[gene]

There seems to be an amazing about of arm waving about power cords with very little real investigation as to what, if anything, might be happening when one changes out the cords on the components. In fact, so far, I have not yet been able to find a single worthwhile test of various cords that might indicate a difference OR indicate there is no differences. There is quite a bit of consistent anecdotal evidence that something is happening when different cords are introduced into a system. As we (should) know, a consistency of observed phenomena is the starting point of scientific investigation.

That's because its really not worth wasting ink on. The stock cord is usually adequate but if you need a longer one, simply replace it with an equivalent gauge one or a lower gauge one and make sure you have the proper plug on both ends. There really isn't much more to it.

 

[Sarius]

Interesting from all of you. No real testing, no data, no inquiry, steel trap closed minds. Just a bunch of assumptions no more valid than the claims on the other side based on nothing. Hardly what I'd call the spirit of scientific inquiry.....

As I pointed out, this would be not be too difficult to put to rest, and given the mass of hype in the rest of the audio press, worth the effort, even if the answer is 'obvious'. Science is full of results that were counterintuitive going in.

While I have never heard the 'effect' of changing a power cord, friends of mine who don't seem particularly prone to delusion have, expressing surprise that they heard any difference with borrowed cords (so no purchase justification involved). There is also a consistency of reports found on the web, enough so to make one curious.

Given the mass of information on the web claiming that there is an effect, no valid research to be found disproving it, and given that this site claims to represent an open minded scientific approach to sifting through audio BS, I challenge you to puncture that balloon.... if you can! With real, measured data.

 

[ruadmaa]

Power Cord?????

Interesting from all of you. No real testing, no data, no inquiry, steel trap closed minds. Just a bunch of assumptions no more valid than the claims on the other side based on nothing. Hardly what I'd call the spirit of scientific inquiry.....

As I pointed out, this would be not be too difficult to put to rest, and given the mass of hype in the rest of the audio press, worth the effort, even if the answer is 'obvious'. Science is full of results that were counterintuitive going in.

While I have never heard the 'effect' of changing a power cord, friends of mine who don't seem particularly prone to delusion have, expressing surprise that they heard any difference with borrowed cords (so no purchase justification involved). There is also a consistency of reports found on the web, enough so to make one curious.

Given the mass of information on the web claiming that there is an effect, no valid research to be found disproving it, and given that this site claims to represent an open minded scientific approach to sifting through audio BS, I challenge you to puncture that balloon.... if you can! With real, measured data.

One would think that any competent manufacturer of electronic equipment would provide a power cord that would enable the piece of gear to run at its' utmost optimum. I can't even imagine that high end companies would provide a power cord that was anything but totally and absolutely adequate to operate their equipment to its' fullest capability.

Personally the only reason that I would even consider replacing a power cord would be if it were damaged. If I needed a longer cord I would simply add an extension cord of the proper guage.

 

[Sarius]

One would think that .........

a five pound weight would fall to earth much faster than a one pound weight. In fact, 'One' thought that for several thousand years. This was such an obvious fact that Anyone who disagreed was an idiot and treated with contempt.

Galileo had a different idea, but he didn't just run around waving his arms in print. He went up the tower and dropped the weights.

End of Story. Beginning of serious Science.

Though to be very accurate, there is some doubt if Galileo actually did this. However, Benedetti Giambattista in 1553 and Simon Stevin in 1586 did.

The bottom line is that any unsupported statement has exactly the same claim on our belief as any other unsupported statement.

 

[Swerd]

OK Galileo, time to get busy

Galileo had a different idea, but he didn't just run around waving his arms in print. He went up the tower and dropped the weights.

The bottom line is that any unsupported statement has exactly the same claim on our belief as any other unsupported statement.

When you have some measured results to discuss come see us again. Be sure to include a credible test of whether different power cords produce audibly different sounds in a hifi system that can be repeatedly heard by a statistically significant number of listeners.

 

[jaxvon]

Don't you think that after all these years of scientific experimentation there would be real evidence for magic power cords? Do you think they use high-end power cords in laboratories where the need for precision is far higher than in hi-fi audio? No. Do music studios run by sane people use them? No. And what about the wiring in your wall? How can a power cord improve what's coming from the wall? Even if filtering were employed, it wouldn't be able to match the ability of a good IsoBar or an amplifier's filter circuit. And to add to that, any power cord with a more than negligible amount of filtering will cost you an outragrous sum of money. There's no reason to spend the money on a fancy power cord when you could achieve superior filtering with a $40 power strip (this is being extrememly generous and assuming that a power cord has some kind of measurable filtering ability).

 

[Lsimon]

I always found it interesting that these sellers of power cords hoped that people would beleive that changing the wire for the last few feet of an electricity path that ran dozens of feet from your junction box, hundreds of feet (or yards) from a electric company transformer, and miles from a power plant, would really change the nature of your sound.

I've always felt that money on esoteric cables would always be better spent on better components, or source material.

 

[Tom Andry]

Sarius,

Galileo, Giambattista, or Stevin or whoever did the test did it because they were trying to prove something contrary to popular belief. The onus isn't on audioholics to test every crackpot theory or mystical belief that comes down the pipe. If powercord manufacturers want you to believe that their products work, they should be the one to prove it through research. Since they can't, there is no need for us to disprove something that has no credible evidence supporting it. Next you'll want us to test wooden volume knobs and magic rocks. Sorry, I'm too busy testing speakers and receivers to waste my time on that nonsense.

 

[Resident Loser]

You do realize...

Interesting from all of you. No real testing, no data, no inquiry, steel trap closed minds. Just a bunch of assumptions no more valid than the claims on the other side based on nothing. Hardly what I'd call the spirit of scientific inquiry.....

As I pointed out, this would be not be too difficult to put to rest, and given the mass of hype in the rest of the audio press, worth the effort, even if the answer is 'obvious'. Science is full of results that were counterintuitive going in.

While I have never heard the 'effect' of changing a power cord, friends of mine who don't seem particularly prone to delusion have, expressing surprise that they heard any difference with borrowed cords (so no purchase justification involved). There is also a consistency of reports found on the web, enough so to make one curious.

Given the mass of information on the web claiming that there is an effect, no valid research to be found disproving it, and given that this site claims to represent an open minded scientific approach to sifting through audio BS, I challenge you to puncture that balloon.... if you can! With real, measured data.

...that PCs only became an issue with the appearance of the ubiquitous IEC connector on audio gear? This connector is strictly an economic expedient...given the dearth of tweak-abilty digital technology has brought about, with the general loss of tonearms, carts and other legit concerns, the cottage industry of after-market wiring has bloomed...Anecdotal accolades and mythology coupled with the free advertising in the these never-ending debates are part of the stock in trade.

All one needs to do is transfer the 110VAC and load capacity from the outlet to the gear...perhaps...perhaps in certain circumstances, sheilding may be required... but beyond that, what would one reasonably expect 8ft. or so of wire to do...

Consider a part of the dichotomy: PCs and ICs make an obvious difference in any system vs. the differences are subtle and only heard on revealing high-res gear...Both remarks from the the same side of the fence BTW...

Few of the PCs carry a UL rating, funny thing is the ones that do are usually the "entry level" models...entry level???...One even allows a "user option" of removing the ground pin...very, very bad...

Take a close look...most are built from off-the-shelf connectors (perhaps of hospital-grade components, themselves of dubious necessity) with standard Belden cordage, done-up in shrink wrap or some other exotic jacket...delivered in a laser etched, mahoghany box which probably costs more than the wire contained therein...something along the lines of the perfume industry's model...

The misnomer of the "burn-in" period is usually longer than the "return" period...

Lessee...110v @ the wall outlet...110v @ the power supply terminals, check...current draw doesn't exceed the UL rating, check...no radio station with it's impinging RFI next door, check...

jimHJJ(...end of serious science...)

 

[gene]

Personally all cable technology is crapola when compared to the:

Audioholics GLOB

If your cable doesn't have GLOB with our patented IBS technology, you are wasting your time and money

 

[Mudcat]

Interesting from all of you. No real testing, no data, no inquiry, steel trap closed minds.

Interesting opinion. Steel Trap Closed Minds. Ummmmm. Perhaps the closed minds are those who want to believe there is a difference and refuse any other opinion.

Just a bunch of assumptions no more valid than the claims on the other side based on nothing. Hardly what I'd call the spirit of scientific inquiry.....

Actually there is more validity to what get said on this board than say AA. At least the electrical engineers contributing here know basic electrical engineering.

As I pointed out, this would be not be too difficult to put to rest, and given the mass of hype in the rest of the audio press, worth the effort, even if the answer is 'obvious'. Science is full of results that were counterintuitive going in.

Then do it! All you would need is a handheld multimeter that has frequency and RLC functions. $50 from RAT Shack. But you sound like the type that will not visit Rat Shack as it is not an "Audiopile" approved vendor.

While I have never heard the 'effect' of changing a power cord, friends of mine who don't seem particularly prone to delusion have, expressing surprise that they heard any difference with borrowed cords (so no purchase justification involved). There is also a consistency of reports found on the web, enough so to make one curious.

Your friend are probably delusional.

Given the mass of information on the web claiming that there is an effect, no valid research to be found disproving it,

The mass of information comes from vendors. Ask them for their scientific analysis.

and given that this site claims to represent an open minded scientific approach to sifting through audio BS,

There is sifting through BS and wallowing in it. Which would you rather do?

I challenge you to puncture that balloon.... if you can! With real, measured data.,

You haven't done much research have you? Maybe if you ask this question over at AA, you'll probably called a bunch of names. Keep in mind that a power cord does not have to carry the same dynamic signal a speaker cable does: Fixed voltage, fixed frequency, variable current; while a speaker cable carries variable voltage, variable frequency, fixed current (there may be minor variations).

So you develop the test parameters and if and when I get the time, maybe I'll test some cables you provide. Or you can look at something I did a year or so ago which tested several cables that can be used as power cables as well as okay speaker cables.

 

[Tom Andry]

Personally all cable technology is crapola when compared to the:

Audioholics GLOB

If your cable doesn't have GLOB with our patented IBS technology, you are wasting your time and money

IBS technology... wipes eyes... man, that editorial never gets old.

 

[majorloser]

What's it worth to ya?

No matter how good the power cable is on the device, the power transfer is only as good as the weakest link. Be that the screw terminals on the outlet, the wiring in the wall, the connections at the breaker or the transformer down the street..........it's AC power with all of it's inherent noise and problems.

I could see that there may and I repeat MAY be something to gain by eliminating the problems with raw AC power by providing clean power with an "on-line" UPS. The power is provided continuously by batteries and an inverter so clean true sine wave power is always provided. The batteries are continuously recharged by raw AC power. These are much better than just power conditioning units. VERY EXPENSIVE and MAJOR HEAT SOURCES.

 

[jneutron]

Actually there is more validity to what get said on this board than say AA. At least the electrical engineers contributing here know basic electrical engineering.

Darn it...guess that leaves me out..

Hey there dude..long time no see.


Sarius: you are correct. Statements quashing line cord involvment, for the most part, are simple extensions of assumed knowledge.

However, the people who claim to hear differences are also at fault here. What, with their magical, grain boundary, motor-generator, dielectric involvement, jitter, plating, strand jumping crapola..How in the world is anybody to take that garbage seriously, hence take their anecdotal observations seriously??

The most vocal PC interaction with a system is called hum. Everybody's been there, everybody's heard it.

Everybody (except me) makes the assumption that if you managed to get rid of the hum, involvement ends. That is an incorrect assumption, the haversine draw from a power amp has odd harmonics that couple to the input ground as the frequency squared.

(tongue in cheek part: I am above the silly dismissal of effects, above you mere mortals. I, of course, am the idiot who hung put a 16 ounce hammer by it's claw on the top of a 30 foot extension ladder, then tried to move the ladder. Luckily, it landed on my shoulder handle first. Sigh, they say never give an engineer something they can hurt themselves with. )

The introduction of the IEC socket forced the geometric fixing of the hot to neutral connection through the chassis bulkhead. This locks the loop coupling. sheesh, doesn't anybody know dis stuff???

Cheers, John

 

[Johnd]

Smoke and mirrors. I have better things to do with my time than guessing which power cord is better than stock on quality equipment. Particularly when the power source (transformer through service line to service panel to breakers through feed line to outlet) is entirely overlooked. Geeesh.

 

[gene]

Everybody (except me) makes the assumption that if you managed to get rid of the hum, involvement ends. That is an incorrect assumption, the haversine draw from a power amp has odd harmonics that couple to the input ground as the frequency squared.

It is the job of the amplifiers power supply to deal with this NOT the power cord. Applying a band aid to heal an open gangrenous wound does NOT a cure make.

I am always amused when an exotic cable vendor claims to have an optomized solution which of course they cannot validate empirically. They often quote a real engineering problem (which usually has little or no bearing at audio frequencies) they solved, yet reject the proven countermeasures to solve it empircally.

Only through their casual and uncontrolled listening tests have they allegedly discovered nirvana. I often wonder how they know they couldn't go any further by analytically analyzing the "problem" and using known material sciences and proven EM theory to take them to the next level.