Power Conditioners?

[drdawg]

Can someone explain how a power conditioner is different from a metal surge protector? i am buying new equiptment right now. I want to make sure it doesn't go bad. I live in chicago so we don't have lightening storms and such around here...not like in florida but still, help me out!

ketan

 

[Mudcat]

A True Power Conditioner will

One type of Power Conditioner will maintain a constant voltage output when the grid (power into the house) is fluctuating. Two units that I'm aware of that do this (and I've used them both) are the Furman AR1215 and the Tripplite LCR2400. Both units will maintain a constant 120 VAC when the input voltage is between 88 and 147. If you're subject to frequent brown outs this may be useful to you. The Furman is very quiet when it is functioning properly, the Tripplite will click when circuits are switched. Both will work as advertised as I've seen incoming voltage dip into the low 90s while the output voltage stayed at 120 (of course current draw goes up when this happens so do not plug anything else into the same wall outlet or even wall circuit).

Another type of power conditioner is sold by monster. The selling point here is not constant voltage but power filtering. I'll admit that I have one (HTS 5100 or something like that - it's old).


Most other things identified as power conditioners are little more than surge suppressors - of which there are still several good brands (Tripplite, Furman etc.).

So, if yoy do not have frequent brown out during thunder storms you'll most likely just need a surge suppressor. The ones you see at the supermarket are really little more than power strips - stay away from those.

Hope this helped

 

[m_vanmeter]

The APC H15 and H10 power conditioners also adjust voltage for low voltage conditions (sags or brownouts) and high voltage (surges or over-voltage). In effect, they "condition" the line voltage so it remains around 115v AC to 120v AV. They also have all the protective circuity of a typical surge surpressor which only handles spike high voltage conditions.

PS: Audioholics has some great pricing on these using in their on-line store.....shameless plug for the site sponser !!!

 

[Midcow2]

Just bought two of Audioholic's APC H15s - very nice fit and finish

The APC H15 and H10 power conditioners also adjust voltage for low voltage conditions (sags or brownouts) and high voltage (surges or over-voltage). In effect, they "condition" the line voltage so it remains around 115v AC to 120v AV. They also have all the protective circuity of a typical surge surpressor which only handles spike high voltage conditions.

PS: Audioholics has some great pricing on these using in their on-line store.....shameless plug for the site sponser !!!

Even more of a plug, I just bought two of their APC H15 and they are really nice. A comment from the wife, "This looks a lot nicer than I thought it would..." when I used the words "power conditioner .. you plug the equipment into it.. I think she was envisoning another power strip

Later,

MidCow2

 

[GlocksRock]

I love my APC H15, I wish I had the money for a second one, but I already have a decent power conditioner for my bedroom system.

 

[ronrags]

I see there is a big sale on the APC power conditions especially the HP15 and HP10. I'm currently using an older power conditioner from Monster HTS-2500 MKII I purchased 5 years ago and I'm wondering if these APC products would make a difference over the older Monster.

 

[sptrout]

I have an APC "J15" which is the same as the H15 but includes an UPS. That would be my recomendation if you have DLP TV, or an DTV DVR (they take several minutes to reset if they lose power).

The bad news is that I do not think there are any deals on the J-Series models for some reason.

 

[randy98ss]

I also saw that apc was having a good deal. I am currently using a monster power hts5100 for my power conditioner and and monster avs2000 for voltage regulation. Would it be better to get the h15 from apc? I hate having monster power stuff in my house...ewww.

 

[ronrags]

I also saw that apc was having a good deal. I am currently using a monster power hts5100 for my power conditioner and and monster avs2000 for voltage regulation. Would it be better to get the h15 from apc? I hate having monster power stuff in my house...ewww.

I agree to rid myself of monster equipment. I replaced all my monster cables with Synergistic and wow, what an improvement.

 

[lsiberian]

I agree to rid myself of monster equipment. I replaced all my monster cables with Synergistic and wow, what an improvement.

You really heard a difference?

I won't buy monster stuff anymore. They put a string of plastic in the middle of their speaker wire. I call that being cheap. Plus the sides of the cables didn't follow the gauge standards very well. I just use Acoustic Research 16 gauge now. Easier to tuck, crimp and hide. Plus it's all copper on the inside.

 

[drdawg]

but what do i need it for?

i am not being sarcastic. everyone replied to say how great the deal was and how grea th H15 was. but do i really need it? so far one guy asnwered but it would be nice to have a consensus.

 

[sptrout]

i am not being sarcastic. everyone replied to say how great the deal was and how grea th H15 was. but do i really need it? so far one guy asnwered but it would be nice to have a consensus.

I have read many versions of your question about conditioners (and UPSs) on several boards and there is one thing that is common: there is never a consensus about either of these two devices. At best, it is 50/50; some people won't live without them while others say no way. My guess most would vote no to power conditioners alone, while UPSs are a toss-up (mainly depends on a person's specific equipment). I posted earlier that I have a J15 UPS, which I believe is best for MY setup. You have to make the final call.......

 

[Pyrrho]

Can someone explain how a power conditioner is different from a metal surge protector? i am buying new equiptment right now. I want to make sure it doesn't go bad. I live in chicago so we don't have lightening storms and such around here...not like in florida but still, help me out!

ketan

Most likely, you will not ever need a power conditioner, nor are you likely to need a surge protector. You are not living in a third world country, and the equipment you buy is designed to be plugged into an ordinary outlet. Now, it is possible that a surge protector or power conditioner might help, if certain conditions occur, but if you had a direct lightning strike at your house, most of them probably wouldn't do you any good.

My advice is this: If you have expensive equipment, get protection, on the off chance that it will matter. I recommend getting something designed for computer equipment. The reason being, for some reason, surge protectors and such for computer equipment typically have sane prices, but things marketed to audio nuts often have crazy expensive prices. (My guess is, that the price difference is due to the fact that many audio nuts will pay crazy prices for ordinary wire that is marketed with fancy words and magical claims. And if they are easy to sucker for that, they will be easy marks for other overpriced accessories as well.) And if the protector is good enough for a computer, it will be good enough for your audio/video gear.

For your specific questions, take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditioner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

 

[Midcow2]

Too me, at Audioholics $150 price for H-15 power conditoner, it is a no-brainer!!

Most likely, you will not ever need a power conditioner, nor are you likely to need a surge protector. You are not living in a third world country, and the equipment you buy is designed to be plugged into an ordinary outlet. Now, it is possible that a surge protector or power conditioner might help, if certain conditions occur, but if you had a direct lightning strike at your house, most of them probably wouldn't do you any good.

My advice is this: If you have expensive equipment, get protection, on the off chance that it will matter. I recommend getting something designed for computer equipment. The reason being, for some reason, surge protectors and such for computer equipment typically have sane prices, but things marketed to audio nuts often have crazy expensive prices. (My guess is, that the price difference is due to the fact that many audio nuts will pay crazy prices for ordinary wire that is marketed with fancy words and magical claims. And if they are easy to sucker for that, they will be easy marks for other overpriced accessories as well.) And if the protector is good enough for a computer, it will be good enough for your audio/video gear.

For your specific questions, take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditioner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

I respectfully disagree. Surge protectors and power regulation is necessary in a lot of areas. In areas with heavy usage the power can fluctuate on a regular basis especially if there are brown outs or the power switches across different grid sources. A power conditoner regulates the power which extends the life of almost all electrical equipment. Also some of the cost factor is how many joules( the work required to move an electric charge of one coulomb through an electrical potential difference of one volt) they can handle before they fail and how responsive they are. The better power conditioners filter noise as well as regulate power. Most UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply) units do not have the capacity for substained operation but merely provide for graceful shutdown.

As far as computer surge protectors costing less, the use a lot less power and are much,much smaller hence the lower cost. Wouldn't it suck buying a low Joule system and have the surge protector fried as well as all you HT equipment if you were hit by lighting or had a significant power surge!

You know, I guess one needs to define their risk adversion and how much they are willing to self insure. You can go without life insurance, you can go with minimum car insurance, you can play risky stocks in the stock market, you can gamble a lot of money on horses. You might or might lose. Such is the definition of "expensive equipment". You are basically saying you will self-insure if the equipment is not "expensive" and provide buy a power conditioner if it is "expensive". Okay let look at pay-back against the silve on-sale $150 HT-15 power contioner. Is a $1,500 system expensive; maybe not but protection is a one tiem cost of 10%. A $3,000 system 5%, a $5,000 system 3% a $15,000 system 1%. LOL add up all your components, in cluding TVs, DVD players, AVRs, speakers etc and you might be suprised at the replacement cost of your system.

As far as computer surge protectors costing less, they use a lot less power and are much,much smaller hence the lower cost. Also some of the cost factor is how many joules(the work required to move an electric charge of one coulomb through an electrical potential difference of one volt) they can handle before they fail and how responsive they are and their low voltage clamping level. Most PC power conditioners are not very responsive but that is not normally a spec you see.

What you should look for:

(1) Response time less than one nanosecond.
(2) Clamping voltage under 400 Volts.
(3) Joule capacityto handle your HT system 5,000 joules is a good number.
(4) Warranty of Power conditioner 1 year, 10 years, lifetime- obviously lifetime is better. ( APC Lifetime : $750000 )
(5) Noise filtering EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 mHz) 50 dB or greater
(6) Voltage regulation 120v +/- 15 V
(7) if UPS at least 15 minute capacity.


Now if you live in a perfect world or are a big risk taker then save your $$$ and don't buy a power conditioner. But for most people and since Audioholics has a very nice silver APC H-15 on sale for $150 will will handle all but the most audiophile hungry systems (and those power hungry systems are also EXPENSIVE, therefore they should get two or so), it is a no-brainer

Anyway to each his Own Peace to those of a differing risk factor and/or opinion.

Later,

MidCow2

 

[Pyrrho]

I respectfully disagree. Surge protectors and power regulation is necessary in a lot of areas. In areas with heavy usage the power can fluctuate on a regular basis especially if there are brown outs or the power switches across different grid sources. A power conditoner regulates the power which extends the life of almost all electrical equipment. Also some of the cost factor is how many joules( the work required to move an electric charge of one coulomb through an electrical potential difference of one volt) they can handle before they fail and how responsive they are. The better power conditioners filter noise as well as regulate power. Most UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply) units do not have the capacity for substained operation but merely provide for graceful shutdown.

As far as computer surge protectors costing less, the use a lot less power and are much,much smaller hence the lower cost. Wouldn't it suck buying a low Joule system and have the surge protector fried as well as all you HT equipment if you were hit by lighting or had a significant power surge!

You know, I guess one needs to define their risk adversion and how much they are willing to self insure. You can go without life insurance, you can go with minimum car insurance, you can play risky stocks in the stock market, you can gamble a lot of money on horses. You might or might lose. Such is the definition of "expensive equipment". You are basically saying you will self-insure if the equipment is not "expensive" and provide buy a power conditioner if it is "expensive". Okay let look at pay-back against the silve on-sale $150 HT-15 power contioner. Is a $1,500 system expensive; maybe not but protection is a one tiem cost of 10%. A $3,000 system 5%, a $5,000 system 3% a $15,000 system 1%. LOL add up all your components, in cluding TVs, DVD players, AVRs, speakers etc and you might be suprised at the replacement cost of your system.

As far as computer surge protectors costing less, they use a lot less power and are much,much smaller hence the lower cost. Also some of the cost factor is how many joules(the work required to move an electric charge of one coulomb through an electrical potential difference of one volt) they can handle before they fail and how responsive they are and their low voltage clamping level. Most PC power conditioners are not very responsive but that is not normally a spec you see.

What you should look for:

(1) Response time less than one nanosecond.
(2) Clamping voltage under 400 Volts.
(3) Joule capacityto handle your HT system 5,000 joules is a good number.
(4) Warranty of Power conditioner 1 year, 10 years, lifetime- obviously lifetime is better. ( APC Lifetime : $750000 )
(5) Noise filtering EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 mHz) 50 dB or greater
(6) Voltage regulation 120v +/- 15 V
(7) if UPS at least 15 minute capacity.


Now if you live in a perfect world or are a big risk taker then save your $$$ and don't buy a power conditioner. But for most people and since Audioholics has a very nice silver APC H-15 on sale for $150 will will handle all but the most audiophile hungry systems (and those power hungry systems are also EXPENSIVE, therefore they should get two or so), it is a no-brainer

Anyway to each his Own Peace to those of a differing risk factor and/or opinion.

Later,

MidCow2

I have known people who have equipment that is decades old, that they have never hooked up to a surge protector or any other protection, with it working fine. If the life of their equipment has been shortened, it isn't noticeable.

However, I did say that it could matter under certain circumstances, and I suggested getting protection anyway, just in case, if the items are expensive. (It obviously would be silly to buy a $2000 surge protector/filter/whatever to protect a device that is worth $500, so one must always balance things out. Of course, you are not advocating spending that much, but the point is, the amount one should be willing to spend for "insurance" depends in part upon the value of what is being insured. However, the review of what you are recommending points out that the device can actually damage other equipment; see: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/power-conditioners/apc-h15/apc-h15-menus-use-and-conclusion.) I agree that one should look at the ratings, and if one does so, I think one will find that, generally speaking, if looking at units that are similarly rated, the ones marketed for computer use will be less expensive than the ones marketed to audiophiles. In the case of the item you are suggesting, it is a very significant sale price, so the current price for it isn't typical.

I would suggest looking for one more thing in a surge protector, and that is finding out what it does in the event its ability to protect against a surge ends, which will generally be the case after repeated surges occur. It is good if the unit then simply cuts power to its outlets, so you know that you need to replace it. However, most simply act as outlet strips after their protection is no longer effective, leading one to falsely believe that all is protected when it isn't. Of course, since protection isn't typically necessary, this might not matter, but it does defeat the purpose of buying one.

 

[Rickster71]

Here is something I posted back in April. I'll repost it, since the subject comes up every once in a while.

Most surges occur when devices with motors - hair dryers, refrigerators, AC units, water pumps - shut off.
Suddenly, the energy these devices were consuming is diverted elsewhere in the form of excess voltage.

Surges also happen when the electric company switches power from one geographic area of the grid to another, as supply and demand in the region changes. Thunderstorms and lightening are the most dramatic and destructive causes of power line problems. We don't have to be the victim of a direct strike.
High voltage spikes can be induced in wiring and travel great distances.

Only 40% of surge problems are generated outside the home or office by events such as lightening, utility grid switching, line slapping, etc. 60% of all electrical surges or transient voltage is generated within the home or office. Surges are caused by elevators, air conditioners, vending machines, copiers, large computers, even lights turning on and off will cause rushes of power and transient voltages back up the line.

Computerized appliances and electronics can be damaged or destroyed by over-voltage surges or spikes. This includes computer equipment and peripherals; electronic equipment such as stereos, TVs and VCRs; household appliances including washers, dryers, refrigerators, dishwashers, microwave ovens, food processors, blenders;(you get the idea) and other electronic devices such as fax machines, telephones, and answering machines. Any electronic device that contains a microprocessor is susceptible to damage from transient voltages.

Try not to get caught up in statements like:
"I know I guy that never used one, and he had no problem."
What does that mean?
I know people that have never been in a car accident. Does that mean they shouldn't have car insurance, or use seat belts?
My other favorite statement is: "Nothing will help in a direct lighting strike"
Since we're not talking about lighting arrestor systems, that's probably true. The chances of being victim of a direct strike is pretty slim. The induced voltage spike that can travel for blocks is the problem.

 

[Rickster71]

Another cause of power surges; line galloping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2RYFrr3wI

 

[lsiberian]

I still don't understand the difference between a Power Conditioner and a UPS from a voltage filtering standpoint. Obviously a UPS provides a better backup system. I would think that would be ideal for any setup.

I use a UPS for my Projector since I don't want the bulb just shutting off on me. Would it be wise to feed the PJ through a power conditioner too?

I ask because I want to take advantage of the deal if that's the case.

 

[mike_wassell]

Most likely, you will not ever need a power conditioner, nor are you likely to need a surge protector. You are not living in a third world country, and the equipment you buy is designed to be plugged into an ordinary outlet. Now, it is possible that a surge protector or power conditioner might help, if certain conditions occur, but if you had a direct lightning strike at your house, most of them probably wouldn't do you any good.

My advice is this: If you have expensive equipment, get protection, on the off chance that it will matter. I recommend getting something designed for computer equipment. The reason being, for some reason, surge protectors and such for computer equipment typically have sane prices, but things marketed to audio nuts often have crazy expensive prices. (My guess is, that the price difference is due to the fact that many audio nuts will pay crazy prices for ordinary wire that is marketed with fancy words and magical claims. And if they are easy to sucker for that, they will be easy marks for other overpriced accessories as well.) And if the protector is good enough for a computer, it will be good enough for your audio/video gear.

For your specific questions, take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_conditioner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

I also disagree. Last summer I switched cable boxes. Originally I had the cable running through my Panamax surge protector/power conditioner. When the technician hooked up my new box he did not run it through the Panamax. I did not think anything about it but started to get a pronounced hum from my speakers. It took me a week or two to figure it out but I decided to run the cable through the Panamax and the hum disappeared. The Panamax worked the way it is supposed to.

 

[niget2002]

I still don't understand the difference between a Power Conditioner and a UPS from a voltage filtering standpoint. Obviously a UPS provides a better backup system. I would think that would be ideal for any setup.

I use a UPS for my Projector since I don't want the bulb just shutting off on me. Would it be wise to feed the PJ through a power conditioner too?

I ask because I want to take advantage of the deal if that's the case.

I just ordered the H15 pretty much for a similar reason. We had a large storm blow through Tuesday night without much warning (you know the type, nothing to everything in 10 seconds). After watching our nice big rear projection dlp flicker off and on a couple of times, I decided I was going to get something. The mailer from the audioholics store this morning sealed the deal. I'm thinking about putting a cheap battery backup between the H15 and the tv to help during total power outages to give me time to shut the tv down... not sure how smart this would be though.