power conditioners

[everettT]

I've had whole house for 18 years, only have apc for server and main desktop. All others there is no issue with data loss. I've been fortunate that I've had no server or pc hard drive loss. I believe that when the electronics have been prioritized , very few need timed backup, earth ground is pretty effective. I'm sure others have more experience, I'm no ee but have had sound advice. I'm sure Dr. Mark can enlighten and or of them few true EEs , ie speedskater, TLS, And others.

 

[Verdinut]

I have an APC H15 Power Conditioner for my sound system which I wouldn't depart with.

If someone is looking for an excellent unfortunately discontinued product which also features a voltage regulator, there are a few new and used ones on eBay at present.

 

[Speedskater]

Decades ago at work in industrial R&D we measured MOV speed and it's darn fast. A problem with point of use surge protection is that long wire back to the ground rod. The wire is to the lightning eye an inductor which slows the protector down.

 

[Joe B]

do I need to spend $500 on a power conditioner? what are the best products for the money?

When I invested in a new av system last year I was asking myself the same question. I watched a video at Crutchfield with a Panamax rep: [https://www.crutchfield.com/learn/videos/powerconditioning/panamax.html?g=24000&i=299MB1500&tp=568]
and decided a power conditioner type product would be unwise not to have. I contacted a rep at Panamax who helped me select the best product for my needs (MR4300 @ $300).
You can get power strips that filter out EMI/RFI for about $50, but getting surge protection along with voltage protection seemed like a no brainer to me. Better sound and protecting your equipment makes investing another few hundred easier to take.

 

[lsiberian]

Shouldn't the UPS or surge protector help with induction damage?

It of course will help with surges on the power lines caused by induction so you definitley don't want to go without. But if the strike is close enough and/or severe enough it can actually do damage via induction. FWIW I've had it happen only once to me and it was only weak cheap components.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Unpluging from a wall outlet is the only sure way from a power surge, or a hit from lightning close by. The home would have to take a direct hit from a lightning strike. But then again all depends on where the house took the direct hit. The building I am in isn't grounded, at least not the unit I'm in. So unplugging is the only guarantee I would recommend. Power conditioners still won't remove a 'ground loop' hum.

I agree, but in principle unplugging power cords isn't enough. Cable coax is a good path too, unfortunately. Lazy oaf that I am I unplug power cords, but I usually leave coax connected. I hope I don't regret that someday.

 

[panteragstk]

It of course will help with surges on the power lines caused by induction so you definitley don't want to go without. But if the strike is close enough and/or severe enough it can actually do damage via induction. FWIW I've had it happen only once to me and it was only weak cheap components.

Let me make sure I'm understanding.

You're saying that if you unplug a device (type doesn't matter I guess) that if you were to get a direct strike once you plug it back in you could still kill it via induction (ESD) even with a surge protector?

I wonder how you'd discharge things if that's indeed the case?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I've had some issues with my power company. I've been using an apc h10 for a few years. I like that you can watch the trim/boost lights(defeatable) working. Won't save me from a lightning hit but the coop has had issues and they've actually replaced some of my gear due to their issues. When I built my house I ran 4 20a circuits to the front of my room with separate grounding for them. Had no issues since the apc came in.

 

[TLS Guy]

The biggest issues here are ice/snow storms and severe thunderstorms. The ice storms in particular cause huge sags and intermittent power outages, which have the potential to be very damaging to equipment.

So my protection is:-

Thorough grounding with heavy gauge copper, tying in the panel, phone/internet, and the grounding block for the FM antenna and Direct TV dish. All are in close proximity and are grounded to three 7' copper rods. Extensive copper star cluster grounding in the studio.

There is whole house surge protection.

The main system is protected by three UPS units, to which everything is connected except the power amps. These units will shave and support dips and peaks of voltage and change to battery if there are severe dips or surges in 1 to 5 msec. They support and keep equipment functioning until the generator starts which is 5 sec after the start of a power outage.

The downstairs system also has a UPS. At first I did not have a UPS here, but this system suffered damage to units twice before the UPS was installed. Touch wood none since.

If there are lights out surges then the Wisconsin V4/Kohler generator will start and continue for 30 min following the last power interruption. If I am here I will sometimes take the house off grid and start the generator manually until the severe weather passes.

This last winter season was very bad for ice storms with lots of power surges and two prolonged power cuts. We also had lots of power problems with last summers severe storms.

The generator was run for over forty hours for the summer/spring of 2016 and the winter of 2016/17 power problems.

I keep the generator carefully serviced and in good condition. I pay particular attention to keep the governor as perfectly adjusted as possible. The house is run on the generator twice and month to check for problems. I do test the generator whenever adverse weather is forecast likely to cause power problems. I keep essential ignition spares on hand and an oil change in event of a very prolonged outage. I use the highest grade synthetic oil and the battery is kept on a regulated maintainer.

I found test prior to storms are important. Before one severe summer outbreak, the generator failed the run up on test due to an ignition problem. It was a blistering hot day, and I produced a puddle of sweat on the garage floor correcting the problem. I got the ignition up about 20 to 30 min before the storm hit.
The storm hit with sudden ferocity and the lights went out instantly, and the generator started.
We lost a lot of trees and branches in that storm.

Grounding blocks.

Part of the grounding system

Two of the three APC UPS units in the bottom of the racks.

Wisconsin V4/Kohler generator.

.

The Wisconsin V4 engines are among the most famous and renowned of America's industrial/agricultural engines. This is one of the last made. The year of manufacture was 1995. I purchased it in 1999. These were produced for at least 60 years I believe. There are four of these generator units in display at Rolag MN, the Western Minnesota Steam Threshers permanent site.

The generator shown here is the most perfect example of this historic unit I know of.

So that is my best shot at power protection deep in the Minnesota North Woods.

 

[eljr]

I do the same, but even unplugging won't stop induction damage.

OK, what is induction damage?

Also, I am out in the country with lots of flash power outages.

An inexpensive power conditioner would help protect or not?

 

[TLS Guy]

Let me make sure I'm understanding.

You're saying that if you unplug a device (type doesn't matter I guess) that if you were to get a direct strike once you plug it back in you could still kill it via induction (ESD) even with a surge protector?

I wonder how you'd discharge things if that's indeed the case?

There is a little misunderstanding here. However induction does play a huge role in the damage caused by power interruptions and surges, which is why a UPS/conditioner is much superior to a power conditioner alone.

Power grids contain lots of inductors. There are the transformers at the substations, the line transformers along the way, and all the inductors in peoples houses in yours and neighbors. This is largely comprised of motors and transformers.

Now the problem is back EMF. This is the voltage generated in by inductors when there is a current change.

The voltage generated V = L (the total inductance of the circuit) X di/dt which is the change in current divided by the time over which that change occurs, So the faster (more sudden) the change the higher the back EMF generated.

Now at the substations the power companies try and blunt this with capacitors. The line pole switches are generally not protected. I know they are not round here. Round here the power company comes round and warn if they are going to open a line switch for maintenance work. When this happens I always transfer to generator before the switch is opened.

Now if the line is broken because of say ice on the line, there is no warning. A good UPS should contain this and transfer to battery before any severe damage.

If your equipment is unplugged before the power is interrupted there will be no damage, unless you plug it back in before power is restored.

Now if the equipment is operating when the power is cut, and there is no protection then the power supply caps will hold a high voltage, which can cause damage if the equipment is switched back on in a short period of time after a power glitch. Power caps, should and usually do have bleeder resistors which will discharge power caps after five to ten minutes. So there is only likely to be damage if you switch a unit back on soon after a brief power interruption.
Restoring power also causes a back EMF voltage spike.

The transfer switch that transfers power from grid to generator and back also produces a back EMF voltage spikes. However I know my UPS units can contain them.

I really disagree basically with those who say a power strip is adequate. If you have expensive gear you don't want to loose, then my best advice is to make sure the electrical system of your house is as good as it can be, especially grounding, use whole house surge protection and use a conditioner/UPS rather then just a power conditioner. If there is equipment you don't mind frying then don't protect it. You can't protect against all events, but if you use the methods I have outlined, then you will protect against 99% or better.

Certainly the weather is getting more violent here, quite quickly actually, and I think it is world wide. I think climate change that is driving this violence and driving up wind speeds, means we all should review protection issues through new eyes.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK, what is induction damage?

Also, I am out in the country with lots of flash power outages.

An inexpensive power conditioner would help protect or not?

I think it will be close to useless. See my last post.

 

[eljr]

I think it will be close to useless. See my last post.

inexpensive UPS/conditioner recommendation?

 

[TLS Guy]

inexpensive UPS/conditioner recommendation?

That is impossible. I need to know where you are and what is available to you.

I need to know your counties electrical supply specifications.

I need to know your total power demands of what you want to protect.

 

[panteragstk]

Thanks for the info. I use APC UPS that have all the features that power conditioners typically have. Sometimes more. You can't buy cheap ones though. Their site is very good at telling you what they are capable of.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

IMHO lovinthehd is bang on. Whole house surge protection is the answer in most cases. It goes into the Electrical Panel in just a few minutes. I'd also follow that with a switched power strip connecting most of the HT Gear - except the Sub. When not it use you can easily switch off the power strip and unplug the Sub.

Even though here in Metro Vancouver Lightning strikes are rare, that's what I have. I also have switched power strips for all the PCs and Router. They get switch off every night, whereas the HT gear only when a lightning storm approaches (rare) or we go on vacation.