Power conditioners question?

[westom]

Fortunately, I have not had to check the the ability of my four UPS devices to handle a lightening strike. However I can assure you they tightly control voltage, so in this regard you don't know what you are talking about. My UPS devices will not let voltage rise over 130 volts and will shave the voltage of it does and start to supplement the voltage from the battery, without going to full battery power, if the voltage drops below 108 volts.

Neither of which exists in your building. Otherwise you have numerous - a long list of - other appliances damaged due to 'massive voltage variations'. Where is the protection for all those appliances?

Electronics are required to operate normally at greater voltage variations. Whereas those voltage variations may be harmful to electric motors; those same voltage variations are normal operation for electronics. Where is the long list of damaged motorized appliances? It does not exist because you do not have massive voltage variations.

Your UPS is a straw man solution - twice over. It has solved something that does not exist and that is not destructive. Its function - to maintain power when during blackouts and extremist brownouts.

How low can voltage go and still be normal voltage for electronics? Incandescent lamps can dim to 50% intensity - normal operation voltage for electronics. How often do you lights dim that much?

What needs protection from voltages that low? Refrigerator. Furnace. Washing machine. Air conditioner.

Electronics need protection from the rare electrical anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years. An anomaly that your UPS cannot protect from. And does not claim to protect from. You even said your UPS responds in milliseconds. Electronics need protection from something that is done in microseconds. Your UPS will not provide protection that all electronics require. Why do high reliability facilities not use your solution? Why do they earth a 'whole house' protector? Protection installed for what actually is harmful to electronics. Your UPS does not even claim to provide that protection.

I keep posting this. You keep ignoring it. Cite this destructive anomaly that your UPS does protect from. You said it takes milliseconds to respond. Your electronics need protection from something that occurs in microseconds The point being that you will not acknowledge engineering facts. You cannot even quote UPS manufacturer specs – that UPS does not claim relevant protection. The point: others are cautioned about your recommendations that only protect from things not harmful or destructive – for tens or 100 times more money.

Electronics require a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Even electronics inside your UPS needs that protection.

 

[TLS Guy]

Neither of which exists in your building. Otherwise you have numerous - a long list of - other appliances damaged due to 'massive voltage variations'. Where is the protection for all those appliances?

Electronics are required to operate normally at greater voltage variations. Whereas those voltage variations may be harmful to electric motors; those same voltage variations are normal operation for electronics. Where is the long list of damaged motorized appliances? It does not exist because you do not have massive voltage variations.

Your UPS is a straw man solution - twice over. It has solved something that does not exist and that is not destructive. Its function - to maintain power when during blackouts and extremist brownouts.

How low can voltage go and still be normal voltage for electronics? Incandescent lamps can dim to 50% intensity - normal operation voltage for electronics. How often do you lights dim that much?

What needs protection from voltages that low? Refrigerator. Furnace. Washing machine. Air conditioner.

Electronics need protection from the rare electrical anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years. An anomaly that your UPS cannot protect from. And does not claim to protect from. You even said your UPS responds in milliseconds. Electronics need protection from something that is done in microseconds. Your UPS will not provide protection that all electronics require. Why do high reliability facilities not use your solution? Why do they earth a 'whole house' protector? Protection installed for what actually is harmful to electronics. Your UPS does not even claim to provide that protection.

I keep posting this. You keep ignoring it. Cite this destructive anomaly that your UPS does protect from. You said it takes milliseconds to respond. Your electronics need protection from something that occurs in microseconds The point being that you will not acknowledge engineering facts. You cannot even quote UPS manufacturer specs – that UPS does not claim relevant protection. The point: others are cautioned about your recommendations that only protect from things not harmful or destructive – for tens or 100 times more money.

Electronics require a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Even electronics inside your UPS needs that protection.

Again not so! The lower end electronic devices are vulnerable. My Direct TV HD DVRs are a case in point. My studio unit was always powered from a UPS. No lockups, and no failure, in over two years now.

Downstairs unit had no UPS. Continuous lockups and failure of two units. I out a smart UPS on it and no lockups in a year now.

Those units by the way are renowned for lockups, there have been a number of posts here about it, and Direct TVs forum is littered with the issue.

So yes it does make a difference. Surge protectors and SMART UPS devices, not any old UPS, are complimentary. You seem to have some ridiculous axe to grind. Talk to any IT director of a bank or large hospital and they will set you straight in a hurry!

I have had enough of this now, and just will warn people that large junks of your posts are just plain erroneous.

 

[alphaiii]

Read the specs for that unit. It has the same specifications found in a $7 surge protector selling in the grocery store. If they call it a power conditioner, then it can sell for a higher price? Yes.

If you need that solution, you need it for everything in the house. That means spending a whopping $1 per appliance for something that actually does provide some protection. Something that is routinely installed in any facility that cannot suffer damage. One 'whole house' protector.

If they put some fancy paint on a new box and get the electrically naive to recommend it, then it must be better? Then you must need it? View its specs numbers. It does not even claim to protect from the electrical anomaly that typically causes electronics damage.

While it's definitely debatable, and ultimately one's opinion as to whether an APC H15 is worth the price.... to say it is the same as $7 surge strip found in a grocery store is downright absurd.

Last I checked, I've yet to see a $7 surge strip that has any sort of voltage monitoring/regulation.

And how many of those surge strips give any real specs other than a joule rating (which isn't exactly the best indication of the level of protection they can provide, and is usually MUCH lower than the 5200J of the H15)? What peak current can they protect against? What is the clamping voltage and let through voltage? Where's the coax protection?

I'm not saying the H15 is the best value, and we could argue all day whether all of its "bells and whistles" are necessary or even of benefit.... and many would argue they are.

The point is...it's a very different piece of equipment from a typical el cheapo surge strip...

 

[alphaiii]

Should've read the whole thread before posting... Looks like I jumped into an intense arguement here...

 

[westom]

Last I checked, I've yet to see a $7 surge strip that has any sort of voltage monitoring/regulation.
And how many of those surge strips give any real specs other than a joule rating (which isn't exactly the best indication of the level of protection they can provide, and is usually MUCH lower than the 5200J of the H15)? What peak current can they protect against? What is the clamping voltage and let through voltage? Where's the coax protection?

How often each day is your TV or clock radio damaged by voltage variations? How often do they power off? Zero? Adjustments for AC main variations are routinely inside electronic appliances.

What does that APC H15 do? It is a UPS. It provides AC power when voltage drops so low as to threaten data - ie interrupt a TV show. How often does your AC drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50%? Voltage even lower should only cause a power off. That is the UPS's function - provide power during blackouts. Anything else already exists inside each electronic appliance.

Where is coax protection? Does that UPS stop transients? Then it also stops TV signals. Since major companies have rewired so many backwater operations, a coax cable should already have the world's best protection - without signal degradation. Same reason why cable companies recommend no protector on their cable. A short wire from cable to earth ground is superior coax protection. Well proven even by 100 years of experience and knowledge. Is your cable properly installed?

Coax protection means destructive energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Even a power strip protector does virtually nothing. But again, 100 years of well proven experience.

Does not matter how many amps that power strip or UPS can conduct (which must be on the order of many tens of thousands). Without a short connection to earth, that current creates massive and destructive voltages. 20,000 amps times the higher voltage means destructive energy. 20,000 amp times near zero voltage (due to proper earthing) means near zero destructive energy inside the building. No appliance (or UPS) damage.

That effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Also not found in power strip protectors. How much is that UPS for only one appliance? $650?

 

[alphaiii]

How often each day is your TV or clock radio damaged by voltage variations? How often do they power off? Zero? Adjustments for AC main variations are routinely inside electronic appliances.

What does that APC H15 do? It is a UPS. It provides AC power when voltage drops so low as to threaten data - ie interrupt a TV show. How often does your AC drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50%? Voltage even lower should only cause a power off. That is the UPS's function - provide power during blackouts. Anything else already exists inside each electronic appliance.

Where is coax protection? Does that UPS stop transients? Then it also stops TV signals. Since major companies have rewired so many backwater operations, a coax cable should already have the world's best protection - without signal degradation. Same reason why cable companies recommend no protector on their cable. A short wire from cable to earth ground is superior coax protection. Well proven even by 100 years of experience and knowledge. Is your cable properly installed?

Coax protection means destructive energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Even a power strip protector does virtually nothing. But again, 100 years of well proven experience.

Does not matter how many amps that power strip or UPS can conduct (which must be on the order of many tens of thousands). Without a short connection to earth, that current creates massive and destructive voltages. 20,000 amps times the higher voltage means destructive energy. 20,000 amp times near zero voltage (due to proper earthing) means near zero destructive energy inside the building. No appliance (or UPS) damage.

That effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Also not found in power strip protectors. How much is that UPS for only one appliance? $650?

The H15 is NOT a UPS. There was a thread (I believe) at AVS that described in much better detail than I could how the automatic voltage regulation works. In my dumbed down terms, it works to boost low voltage and trim high voltage to keep within a target range. It is not intended to only provide power during blackout...but is meant to help with problems of fluctuating voltages.

The J15/S15 have voltage regulation (in the same way as the H15) AND battery backup as well.

You argue that the projection for these voltage swings exists in electronic devices already... Then why do so many believe that extreme fluctuations are more of an issue than just blackouts followed by voltage surges when power is restored?

And just to throw it out there, I don't think anyone is naive enough to think any of these devices will protect from direct (or near direct) lightning strikes...

And I agree about the wire to ground being the PROPER way to protect across the coax line. But I guess I don't have as much faith as you that all of the incoming lines are properly grounded. Hell, despite building codes it's still sometimes an issue to find improper grounding in a home's wiring...so why should I believe the coax is going to always be grounded properly...just because the cable company says I shouldn't add any protection to their line??? Given the half-assed install jobs their techs routinely do...I don't put much stock in what they say. To me, it's worth having the added coax protection...this is of course assuming the equipment does effectively shunt the surges to the AC ground as claimed.

Anyway, the APC H15 cost me $130 brand new due to the closeout pricing on the silver models...I never would have even considered paying full retail, or even close to it. And given the crap I see selling for $60-70 (ahem, Monster surge protectors at Best Buy for example)... I see the H15 as a value.

I suppose it's up to everyone to decide where they stand on the whole surge protector, power conditioner, UPS debate. I didn't buy the H15 thinking it would "condition" the incoming power and make some magical difference in the audio or video in my system... I bought it as a means of protecting my equipment, that's all.

And let me add....I'm all for whole house protection installed by the electric company... Unfortunately, I still rent and won't stay put long enough for now that it's not worth...

 

[westom]

You argue that the projection for these voltage swings exists in electronic devices already... Then why do so many believe that extreme fluctuations are more of an issue than just blackouts followed by voltage surges when power is restored?

Why did so many also believe Saddam had WMDs? An overwhelming minority who did not ignore the numbers knew no such evidence existed. Yet 7 out of 10 simply let their eyes glaze over when numbers arrive.

Show me the design standard that says low voltages and fluctuations are harmful. We designed this stuff. Charts (international standards) are bluntly clear about what must happen with each voltage. Any voltage between 120 VAC and 0 is either in the normal operation state or in another area that says, in capital letters, "No Damage Region".

Am I making this all up? Did I invent that phrase? Why do we even test electronic designs with a variac? Lower voltage to confirm it will work when incandescent bulbs are at less than 50% intensity. Do these tests cause harm? Of course not. We tests to confirm a voltage where electronics only power off. Now a majority without any training or experience will say we are wrong? How insulting.

Your's is an excellent question. Why do so many *know* when they did not even do this stuff? Ignored the numbers. Did not use a variac to make extreme voltage variations. How do they know when their conclusion only comes from hearsay and classic junk science reasoning?

Show me. Identify the electronic component damaged by extreme voltage variation. I would not believe what someone told me without that detail. Hearsay is a major source of that 'voltage fluctuation' fear.

OK. Nobody provided numbers. They just *knew* using wild speculation derived only from observation. IOW they knew using junk science reasoning. Instead, let’s view datasheets - facts. Numbers for typical electronics. View a datasheet for the CD40xx series CMOS: Acceptable voltage is anywhere from -0.5 to +20 volts:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/108514_DS.pdf

Could that be any more extreme? Even a voltage less than a blackout - negative voltage - cause no damage. Numbers - what so many will so often ignore to entertain junk science conclusions.

More numbers. A later SN74HCxx series digital electronics from TI. Acceptable voltage is anywhere from -0.5 to 7 volts:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet2/d/0jlueuzgy7xfh1cxw8ucuasqi1yy.pdf

Again any voltage from negative to well above the operational 5 volts will not cause damage.

Show me. Identify the component damaged by low voltage. With numbers. Nobody does. And yet so many still believe the extreme voltage myth - when that AC mains voltage variation is only minor.

Again, numbers. How often does your incandescent bulb dim to 50% intensity? Then extreme voltage variations do not even exist. And still, many will insist extreme variations exist only because it explains what they want to believe. Only because hearsay told them what to believe.

Do we learn from history? Saddam only had WMDs for the exact same reason. Seven out of ten blindly believed what they were told rather than engage their brain, logical thinking, asking why, or viewing the numbers.

View numbers for that APC H15. Those are UPS specifications. It is a UPS. It does not claim any other useful function. All UPSes do AVR. Some do it better than others. But it is still a UPS.

But some companies promote myths to the naive, increase the price, then reap massive profits from the scam. Another 'Saddam WMD' example. Monster Cable labeled speaker wire. Defined on end for the speaker. If wire was reversed, then audio sound would be distorted - they said. Guess what. So many swore they could hear the difference. They believed the first thing they are told. Speaker wire has polarity? Of course not. Why did so many believe Monster Cable's myth? Why did so many spend $70 for $7 speaker wire? Seven out of ten will even let their eyes glaze over when the numbers arrive. Simply believe what they are first told to believe. Not bother to ask why. Not do any logical thinking.

Why do so many believe? Observation not tempered by first learning the underlying concepts is classic junk science. A violation what everyone was taught in junior high science. And what so many did to *know* Saddam had WMDs. Same is why so many *know* voltage fluctuations cause damage.

Show me the numbers. What component is damaged by those voltage fluctuations. Why is it damage? To know extreme variations cause damage without learning why? To know only from observation is classic junk science.

Your question is excellent. Why do so many know when facts say otherwise? Why do so many ignore what was even taught in junior high science to violate good logical thinking? Why do seven out of ten ignore numbers to believe myths and hearsay? I don’t know.

What does that APC claim to do? Read its numbers. It claims to provide power during blackouts and extreme brownouts. That UPS’s other functions already exist inside those appliances.

 

[westom]

But I guess I don't have as much faith as you that all of the incoming lines are properly grounded. Hell, despite building codes it's still sometimes an issue to find improper grounding in a home's wiring...so why should I believe the coax is going to always be grounded properly...just because the cable company says I shouldn't add any protection to their line???

Faith has nothing to do with it. Only *you* are resposible for providing that ground. If you don't provide proper grounding, then the cable company cannot bond to superior protection.

So you install a protector as if that 'adds' to protection? Nonsense. Protection is only as good as what defines the protection layer. That protector is only as effective as its earth ground. They have you believing a myth that some cable protector will stop and absorb surge energy. Reality - it only degrades coax signals.

A potector without earth ground may even contribute to appliance damage. Example one: as engineers, we traced damage through electronics when that protector earthed a surge destructively through an adjacent appliance. Again, why do telcos want their protector as close to earth as possible ... and up to 50 meters separated from electronics?

Example two: Somehow, if you add a protecctor that has no earthing, then it will increase protection? Nonsense. From the NIST:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in
> the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

NIST just defined your coax surge protectcor.

Example three: Norma defines another problem with a protector promoted by myth on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage":
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.
A human safety threat too common with grossly undersized plug-in protectors promoted by hearsay. It did exactly what its numbers claim. No earth ground means your coax protector may earth that surge destructively via nearby appliances. So grossly undersized as to create a human safety threat. Most every fire department has seen similar examples.

And still you know it must add protection only because it is called a surge protector? Only because popular urban myth recommends it? Reality does not change when retail salesmen invent slogans. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. You are responsible for providing earth ground.

You provide the secondary protection layer. A homeowner should also inspect the primary surge protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Each protection layer is defined by the only item that must always exist - earth ground. What is necessary so that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.