Power Conditioners- Mega Snake Oil??

ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>hi Edr

Thansk for your suggestion as well about the expanded breaker panel box. So 130 amps total is the average?

I, like yourself, hate when you have a cord that is just 2 inches shy of reaching an ac socket.. you better believe ill be loading up the sockets in every room...



Rob</font>
 
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ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>does anyone have any thoughts of prewiring speaker cable for existing or new formats of speaker configuration coming out over the next few years?

Currently i have a 6.1 setup, with the surrounds being direct radiating speakers, not bipole or dipole. I have one rear center.

I am wondering if I should wire dipole down the road, maybe two rear centers, what locations they should go, etc...

also, what is a good size of room in consideration of its purpose for mainly home theatre and a little music?</font>
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>EdR: Thanks for the info.
 After seeing info like that you've got me thinking. MOV's life may well be dependent on that good old energy under the curve concept. If that energy is continually large than the MOV's life will be shortened much more quickly. If the energy under the curve is short than MOV's life could be much more extended.
I guess The real question is how much energy they can take over a period of time, especially over &quot;real time&quot; conditions. I don't have an answer for that one.
 The other question I have is that when an MOV starts to decay, what are it's properties? I have observed an MOV that really got &quot;whacked&quot; and the MOV shorted out to blow the circuit breaker, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. When an MOV decays over a long period of time will it wind up doing the same?
            d.b.


               </font>
 
E

EdR

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Dan Banquer : EdR: Thanks for the info.
 After seeing info like that you've got me thinking. MOV's life may well be dependent on that good old energy under the curve concept. If that energy is continually large than the MOV's life will be shortened much more quickly. If the energy under the curve is short than MOV's life could be much more extended.
I guess The real question is how much energy they can take over a period of time, especially over &quot;real time&quot; conditions. I don't have an answer for that one.
 The other question I have is that when an MOV starts to decay, what are it's properties? I have observed an MOV that really got &quot;whacked&quot; and the MOV shorted out to blow the circuit breaker, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. When an MOV decays over a long period of time will it wind up doing the same?
            d.b.


               
Hi Dan,

I had a discussion with an Electrical Engineer who worked on some classified project at Hughs several years ago.  He told me that they were dealing with very sensitive circuits and needed extremely good surge suppression, before designing their own, they took a number of commercial units apart and discovered that the Tripp Lite Isobars had induction coils in front of their MOV that soaked up all the smaller (up to several hundred volt transients) stuff, so that the MOV's only got hit on a 'whopper' surge, thus they didn't degrade.  They come to the conclusion that they couldn't do much better, and even though they could afford anything, they went with the Tripp Lites. &nbsp;This was from about 10 years ago, but at that time, he felt that Tripp Lite IsoBars were superior to any of the other commercial products that they examined.

He also indicated that when MOV's degrade, the strip still works, and you have in effect, an unprotected powerstrip.  Again, if anyone knows better, I'd really like to know, as I've been working on that assumption.</font>
 
E

EdR

Audioholic
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ThA tRiXtA : <font color='#000000'>hi Edr

Thansk for your suggestion as well about the expanded breaker panel box. So 130 amps total is the average?</font>
<font color='#000000'>Was, here. I might mention that we found a spec house that was in an ideal location- backed up on a really nice pond, only 3 miles from my wife's job, and a great basic floor plan that was only the poured basement. &nbsp;We bought it with the understanding that we could (and did) make major modifications. &nbsp;As a result, we ended up with a good 95% of what we'd have wanted if we'd started with an empty lot and architect, at less than half the price. &nbsp;So the 130 amp was the standard for that developer and this development. &nbsp;

If you're designing from the ground up, you'd just specify what you want and design it in. &nbsp;Our way worked for us, as the crews were here anyway, and there was a very good site super who needed to get all 12 home built, so minimal delays and hassles.</font>
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Hi Ed;
  That makes sense to me; we are using a similar technique on protecting a High Voltage unit here at work. The only difference is that we are using transorbs instead of MOV's.
 Thanks for the info.
                 d.b.</font>
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Hi EdR - sounds like you got a nice place!

I hope mine turns out too.... I am kinda worried / stressed!</font>
 
E

EdR

Audioholic
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ThA tRiXtA : <font color='#000000'>Hi EdR - sounds like you got a nice place!

I hope mine turns out too.... I am kinda worried / stressed!</font>
<font color='#000000'>Believe me, I understand- it was from Febuary through August to move in, than over a year of chasing defects with the builder- one bit of advice, assume nothing, do nothing on a handshake, and visit the build site (nicely) frequently. &nbsp;I built a solid relationship with the site super, to the point where he welcomed me coming by, and I inspected the house almost daily- being very low key when I saw something. &nbsp;He wanted to do a good job, so almost always, if I saw something that I didn't like and just asked him about it, he'd make it right. &nbsp;As a result, we've had many fewer issues than our neighbors, and I caught several things before the drywall went up that were very easy to fix, that would have been big bucks later.

It will be worth it though.</font>
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>yea it sure gets alot harder to do something after they mud the dry wall huh?</font>
 
T

TVSS Pro

Audiophyte
TVSS definately not Snake Oil, usually mis-applied

Gentlemen,

I will begin with the statement that I sell Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV)-based TVSS systems for a living. I’m also an A-V nut and a musician. Now that you know I'm biased, let me explain what I know in layman’s terms.

MOV's degrade over time for a couple of reasons. The primary cause is as their surge capacities are exceeded, they degrade. Similar to how a fuse blows at too high of a voltage, so do MOV’s. The MOV's found in Audio Application surge strips, like the Monster power bar I have on my Pioneer Elite 710 HD, are tiny and can take up to only a certain amount of voltage hit until they reach the pain threshold and begin degrading. Usually these smaller strips degrade rather quickly...read the fine print of your strip's manual and that should tell you the capacities and warn you of this issue. They are simply too small to take the big hits.

IEEE, the Electrical Industry's experts, therefore recommends that you approach lightning and surge suppression in a "Layered" format in what is referred to as the "Emerald" book.

Here is the quote from the experts:

(Chapter 8, Page 338)

“Facilities housing electronic load equipment of any type should have service entrances equipped with effective lightning protection in the form of listed category “C” surge protective devices, as specified in the IEEE Std C62.41.-1991. “

What they are saying is that in order to get the very best protection, you should seriously consider putting a "BIG OLE HUNKIN" (obviously my technical term) TVSS at the service entrance into your house or business. Located at your main breaker panel. If you have any sub-panels, you should put smaller ones there. Then the downline power strips and or power conditioners are therefore protected from the larger strikes and will not degrade.

Our industrial capacity TVSS units have very short leads and when properly installed at the panel they have a very short path to ground. And therefore they have one-billionth of a second response times. You cannot physically get this super fast kind of protection from a unit you have in your audio rack plugged into a wall unless you sink a ground rod right there.

The latest/ eighth-generation of these large TVSS systems are currently being sold exclusively by briopower.com out of Austin, Tx. (The company I work for.) The gentleman that patented/invented this stuff 30 years ago using NASA's research notes is named lord helmet Diller (referred to as the Grandfather of the surge strip), and he claims there is no better protection than our Surgepure TVSS Plus system in existence, from a capacity and longevity perspective.

The reason these are better is that he has developed a way to manufacture very large capacity units using a Huge / Single MOV Design. In a multiple MOV design (a less expensive, degrading method to build these things), best attempts are made to size match an array of smaller capacity MOV's in order to keep their electrical switching points as close as possible, but one is ALWAYS weaker than the other and will be the first to go during a catastrophic hit, degrading the capabilities of that stoppage point.

A very neat benefit of a service entrance MOV is that in addition to protecting your Audio equipment from exterior surges, it also isolates each electrical circuit in your house from the other. This means that when your fridge or AC compressors switch on and off and generate big-ish transient voltages (notice lights dimming when your AC kicks on?), before that surge can get to the circuit that powers your audio (or the power conditioner there) it is sent to ground at the breaker box. After a TVSS panel installation your lights might still dim, but they will never get hit by “too high” of voltage again, and that is where the damage happens.

We’ve found that businesses that install a service entrance TVSS and sub-panel TVSS’s eliminate all transient voltage damage that they generate themselves. Studies show that 75-80 percent of electrical degradation (sometimes referred to as electrical corrosion or rust) is actually due to internally-generated transients. In other words, your own equipment kills your other equipment over time.

It is as important to protect your sub-panels too, if you have one. IEEE states:

“ In addition to surge protective devices installed in the service entrance equipment, it is recommended that additional surge protective devices of Category”B” or Category “A”, as specified in IEEE Std C62.41.1991, be applied to downstream electrical switchboards and panelboards, and panelboards on the secondary of separately derived systems if they support communications, information technology equipment, signaling, television, or other form of electronic load equipment.”

Once these systems are properly installed and eliminate transients you’re generating yourself, light bulbs start lasting FOUR TO TEN TIMES LONGER on average. Motors last two to four times longer and run more efficiently. And your power bill is very likely to go down (or not increase as much as power rates go up), as more optimum efficiencies of any electrical equipment are maintained longer, and all your electric “stuff” pulls less power over time.

Again this should be used in conjunction with regular power strips/line conditioners.

At briopower.com we know this stuff works so well that we partnered with Hartford insurance to offer equipment surge warranties for $500,000.00 for 15 years. Install our TVSS equipment and if any of your connected audio equipment gets hit or damaged afterwards by a surge or strike event, we repair/replace it for free, no deductable, non-subrogated.

I did not make that statement as an advertisement, rather to illustrate how effective panel-mount TVSS systems are.

Two final notes. The industrial TVSS devices are expensive, but are less than a top of the line Line Conditioner. One TVSS big enough to handle a service entrance runs about $2500, smaller ones for sub panels (if needed) run around $1500.00. But more often than not, these will pay for themselves in lowered electrical bills and lowered maintenance costs over time. And they protect EVERYTHING in your house, from alarm clocks to alarm systems.

You can also call your homeowners insurance to ask for a premium reduction after installation, and you can feel good about the environment because you consume less equipment, energy, and light bulbs/fixtures over time.

Oh, and if you install a TVSS system, be sure to check your refrigerator temps afterwards as it is not uncommon for them to literally become more efficient and get colder…to the point of freezing your veggies. :D
 
J

Jessjosh

Enthusiast
Shunyata

I have read a lot about the Shunyata Hydra Model 8 and I see that it has not been mentioned at all in this forum. It is called a "power distribution center" and has been awarded product of the year and the most wanted component award. I am not a techie and really do not understand exactly why it is claimed to improve the sound by getting rid of all the noise on the cables among other things. Does anyone on this forum have any objective information on this component? Thank you.

JRJ
 
C

caffeinetrip

Audiophyte
Hate me or not? =)

I used to work at Best Buy and sold $400 Monster Power Centers weekly...and $150-$200 Monster Power Strips daily. I told my customers that if they were buying a big screen TV or a surround sound system that they had to buy one. Here was my sales pitch...

"If you use one of those $10 white power strips from Target, your power will actually be bottle necked because they are designed for small applicances and will not allow enough power to go though to your big applience. That and the they won't even provide enough surge protection to your 50" Grand Wega, (or whatever), but the main benifit of these Power Centers is the filters that they have inside that act like a water filter for your electricity...you don't drink tap water anymore do you?"

Should I be stoned? I honestly have no idea if any of what I said was true, but it was my job and I figured that if what the monster reps, bb training, and managers said were true, then they defintly need a one, and if they were wrong...well okay stone me if you must.

As for myself, I had a long debate wheater or not to buy an expensive one for myself, and no one that worked there really knew for sure if they were worth the money even after our employee discount, which was 50% off all Monster Products. I wanted to buy the HTS 1000 ($149 retail) but ended up buying the Acoustic Research AP08V ($35 retail). I wish I had found this website earlier, but do you think that there is even a noticeable difference? Was any of that stuff I regurigated true?

My system composises of:
Yamaha RX-V800 Reciever
Energy Encore 6 Speakers and 2 matching subs.
Panasonic DVD Player
 
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