Power Conditioner Recommendations

  • Thread starter PearlcorderS701
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P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
I haven't, up until now, considered adding a power conditioner to a standard surge protector my gear is plugged into, as I never really understood the benefits. Can anyone suggest a rather "affordable" power conditioner that will get the job done for keeping dirty AC out of the line and such from my house, while not going too overkill as my components really don't go beyond an HDTV, A/V receiver, Blu-ray player and cable box?
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
The APC H15 is great. The Silver's were on sale for under $100. I paid $150 a year ago and bought two; it is a great power conditoner and surge protector. I think the price has gone back up to $272 or more :confused:

http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/products/index.cfm?action=detail&base_sku=H15BLK

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=apc+h15+price&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=1979058895478151919&ei=yeW7S4S3NJiEnweIz8X-DQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers


Good Luck!

Forest Man
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
The APC H15 is great. The Silver's were on sale for under $100. I paid $150 a year ago and bought two; it is a great power conditoner and surge protector. I think the price has gone back up to $272 or more :confused:

http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/products/index.cfm?action=detail&base_sku=H15BLK

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=apc+h15+price&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=1979058895478151919&ei=yeW7S4S3NJiEnweIz8X-DQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers


Good Luck!

Forest Man
As always, thanks Forest Man!

A couple of things here...first, do you think I necessarily "need" a conditioner on top of a surge strip for only a 90 watt per channel AVR, Blu-ray player, cable box and HDTV?

Secondly, these APC products are a bit out of my budget for this sort of accessory; the first one you said was great listed for 400 something bucks on APC's site...unless I read that wrong. Is there something you can recommend for under $100, or about 100?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I haven't, up until now, considered adding a power conditioner to a standard surge protector my gear is plugged into, as I never really understood the benefits. Can anyone suggest a rather "affordable" power conditioner that will get the job done for keeping dirty AC out of the line and such from my house, while not going too overkill as my components really don't go beyond an HDTV, A/V receiver, Blu-ray player and cable box?
Job one for any home these days, is whole house surge protection, not strips. Almost everything these does uses microprocessors chips: - furnaces, stoves, refrigerators, washing machines, on and on.

A unit like this installed by your electrician is highly recommended.

Next for expensive items like TVs, receivers, prepros, and disc players, you need a device the will control voltages high and low within tight parameters within 1 to 5 msec. They device needs to have batteries to do this. Also it needs to go to battery right away during severe disturbances and power outages, and be able to do a soft power done of your sensitive equipment in longer outages.

I can recommend refurbs from this outfit.

My best estimate is that 75% of failures and repair bills, at least, are due to not installing this type of equipment.

This is part of the design for any house and set up and should be part of the basics. It is money well spent and excellent insurance.
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
TLS makes a great point about whole house surge protector. Install one and you will eliminate 90-95% of your problems. .... But they are not cheap and I agree with his recommendation to use a licensed electrician.

Are you getting power fluctuations and brown-outs ? or are you just interested in surge protection ? There is a lot of interesting reading and discussion that has been on audioholics threads about this subject ...:rolleyes: search and plan on reading awhile ;)

Peace, Good Sound and Good Video,

Forest Man
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
There's a big difference between a surge suppressor and a power conditioner. A suppressor only does that- deals with surges. It will do nothing for RF or other noise that in on the AC waveform. That requires a filter of some kind. Also, neither a filter nor a suppressor will do anything for softer fluctuations and drastic voltage drop. That's where some kind of regulation is needed. The power companies are held to a standard of supplying 120VAC +/- 10%, so 108-132VAC is within their "acceptable" range. Sensitive electronics don't like that kind of range, especially when it's rapid enough to be called a 'voltage spike'.

Whole house surge protectors are for major transients from outside of the building and are the right way to deal with these. It won't do anything for spikes that are induced by a nearby lightning strike, though. It won't do anything about voltage spikes from switches and motors in the house, either.

Dirty power is something we have little control over, as old and over-taxed as our power grid is, unless we do some research. FYI- transformers limit current, so be careful when choosing a device that claims to have no negative effect on power amplifiers. Power conditioners sometimes have receptacles marked for amplifiers, separate from the rest.
 
B

BWG707

Audioholic
Do power conditioners actually clean up types of noise coming thru power lines and connectors? Can you actually hear a diffrence? I've always wondered if conditioners would clean up the little buzz sounds that are sometimes heard in the background, usually louder as the volume increases. I really don't know what produces those buzz sounds, maybe the reciever (amps). What kind of sound would RFI interference make?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Do power conditioners actually clean up types of noise coming thru power lines and connectors? Can you actually hear a diffrence? I've always wondered if conditioners would clean up the little buzz sounds that are sometimes heard in the background, usually louder as the volume increases. I really don't know what produces those buzz sounds, maybe the reciever (amps). What kind of sound would RFI interference make?
The point of protectors and UPS devices is not to make equipment sound better, but to prevent damage, save repair bills and give your equipment a long trouble free life.

If your power is like most in the US now, it is highly hazardous to your equipment.

The equipment gets increasingly fragile and the power worse.

When most people have their equipment fail, they have no idea that the power from the grid more likely than not caused it.

This is something that needs attention from everyone. Please see my post above.

As far as your buzz, the two big culprits are ground loops, and RF interference from light dimmers and fluorescent lights.

There are lots of threads in these forums about ground loops, which is noise induced in interconnecting cables by grounds being at different potentials.

Last but not least most homes now probably have inadequate grounds for modern AV equipment.

Your house ground should be in a spot that receives rain, and should consist of at least three 7ft copper rods driven into the ground, and tied together with gauge 4 copper. The panel should be bonded to the rods with gauge 4 copper also. Your cable system at entry, or your satellite grounding block and any roof antennas and phone system (if it is connected to any of your components) should be bonded directly to this ground with gauge 4 copper.

So quiet trouble free AV equipment starts with the ground as outlined above. Then you need whole house surge protection and the fragile equipment (anything with a microprocessor) needs to be run from a smart UPS.

That needs to be part of the budget of any system and will be the foundation of trouble free quiet listening. These items are not the place to skimp, and that advice I'm giving you gets more important by the week.
 
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PearlcorderS701

Banned
Oh Boy...

While I thank you for all the replies, fellas, I think this thread went into a tangent and area that's a bit too "on the technical side;" I understand a "surge protector" is different from a "power conditioner" and that's why I wanted recommendations for a conditioner to replace my APC AurgeArrest system...something that would "clean up" the juice that my gear runs on from things like the dishwasher, washing machine, etc...do conditioners not do this?

I'm not looking for "whole house" electrician-installed devices like suggested above, just something like the APC that Forest Man recommended, perhaps, something that fits in the cabinet of gear that will keep some of the power "clean" so to speak...

Do these conditioners -- like those from Monster and APC -- "work" as compared to ordinary surge protection systems?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Do power conditioners actually clean up types of noise coming thru power lines and connectors? Can you actually hear a diffrence? I've always wondered if conditioners would clean up the little buzz sounds that are sometimes heard in the background, usually louder as the volume increases. I really don't know what produces those buzz sounds, maybe the reciever (amps). What kind of sound would RFI interference make?
Buzz can be grounding issues, especially when the volume is constant. If it gets louder with the volume control, look at where your cables are run and whether they're close to, and parallel to, power cables/cords. Some runs of power wiring is horizontal, just above the height of the outlets. Unfortunately, so is all of our equipment.

RFI is Radio Frerquency Interference and it can be kind of a grainy background noise, buzz, steady frequency, etc. Just being RF doesn't mean that it's inaudible- it just means it's transmitted through the air.

RF that's ON the AC power is fairly easy to filter out- most is gone by the time it leaves the pieces' power supply and shouldn't be a problem. It can be a problem when it gets into circuitry that uses a sampling rate (44KHz, 96KHz, 192KHz, 256KHz, 312KHz) or a clock frequency (often 3.18MHz) to operate. The noise can cause glitches and all kinds of other odd things.

Another kind of interference that a conditioner won't help is EMR (Electro Magnetic Radiation) when it's from audio/video cable proximity to power cords, motors, etc. This can be reduced by moving the cables apart but it's hard to shield, in most cases.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Oh Boy...I'm not looking for "whole house" electrician-installed devices like suggested above, just something like the APC that Forest Man recommended, perhaps, something that fits in the cabinet of gear that will keep some of the power "clean" so to speak...

Do these conditioners -- like those from Monster and APC -- "work" as compared to ordinary surge protection systems?
Yes, you are looking for the whole-house type. If you have a lightning strike that causes a huge surge, shunting it to ground is the best way to deal with it and the point where it enters the house is the best place because your breaker panel has the heaviest ground cable (your best path to ground). That way, it doesn't cause your equipment to see 150KV when the suppressor's capacity is exceeded or it arcs across the device's wires. If this makes it to your receiver, the APC can route the surge to ground but that's usually through a long cable run and several connections. These surges can be so strong that the Romex punches through the drywall. It also stresses every electrical device in the house.

I would pass on Monster, anything. Do the whole-house protection and a conditioner with RF filtering. Intermatic makes a 100A protector that's about $120 and shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to install- it has a coupler that attaches it to the panel and three wires, literally. Look at your panel- the local electrical code may have called for something like this and I have heard that it's becoming a mandatory part of residential electrical service.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Yes, you are looking for the whole-house type. If you have a lightning strike that causes a huge surge, shunting it to ground is the best way to deal with it and the point where it enters the house is the best place because your breaker panel has the heaviest ground cable (your best path to ground). That way, it doesn't cause your equipment to see 150KV when the suppressor's capacity is exceeded or it arcs across the device's wires. If this makes it to your receiver, the APC can route the surge to ground but that's usually through a long cable run and several connections. These surges can be so strong that the Romex punches through the drywall. It also stresses every electrical device in the house.

I would pass on Monster, anything. Do the whole-house protection and a conditioner with RF filtering. Intermatic makes a 100A protector that's about $120 and shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to install- it has a coupler that attaches it to the panel and three wires, literally. Look at your panel- the local electrical code may have called for something like this and I have heard that it's becoming a mandatory part of residential electrical service.
I appreciate your input here, but I would still like to go down the route of a "component"-type conditioner, to replace my surge protector...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Oh Boy...

While I thank you for all the replies, fellas, I think this thread went into a tangent and area that's a bit too "on the technical side;" I understand a "surge protector" is different from a "power conditioner" and that's why I wanted recommendations for a conditioner to replace my APC AurgeArrest system...something that would "clean up" the juice that my gear runs on from things like the dishwasher, washing machine, etc...do conditioners not do this?

I'm not looking for "whole house" electrician-installed devices like suggested above, just something like the APC that Forest Man recommended, perhaps, something that fits in the cabinet of gear that will keep some of the power "clean" so to speak...

Do these conditioners -- like those from Monster and APC -- "work" as compared to ordinary surge protection systems?
What you are looking for and what you need are different.

"Cleaning up the juice" is largely a common misconception. So the short answer to your question is a qualified no.

If you are having trouble with appliances bothering your equipment, the interface of your equipment and the AC outlet is not the best place to deal with it. Please see my previous post.

I would point out again, that these issues are solved by grounding and how your equipment is interconnected largely.

Now the only type of device that does what you want is expensive. What I'm talking about are regenerative type power conditioners and regenerative UPS units.

These units have an inverter. The AC power is converted to a completely new AC wave from a large high current oscillator in the unit. So your equipment is totally isolated from the AC power.

I don't advise these types of units for anything other than highly critical applications.

The reason is that the best are about 40% efficient, so they generate a lot of heat and increase your electricity bill. Because of the way these units work, they have the highest chance of failure.

The other reason is that the power supplies in your units also clean the power as the AC is converted to DC and so with the exception of some computer type power supplies, which are also often found in low end subs, you equipment is already isolated from the AC in a way that a power conditioner would isolate it. So a power conditioner is redundant in most circumstances.

What every house needs, and I mean every house these days, is a review and in most cases upgrading of the ground, and not just for your AV equipment either. All homes also need whole house surge protection.

What equipment does benefit from is tight voltage regulation and soft shut downs etc. These are the tasks a good UPS will perform. You will get your money back in not saved repair bills and reducing premature failure of equipment.
 
P

popotoys

Audioholic
Thanks for doing the search; I appreciate that.

I was looking for something closer to the $100 or under mark. Not sure this exists for a decent conditioner...
This is the cheapest I have seen. I bought 2 APC H-10's for $199.00 each when they were on sale but those deals haven't been around for a while.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
This is the cheapest I have seen. I bought 2 APC H-10's for $199.00 each when they were on sale but those deals haven't been around for a while.
Do you know if these devices actually "clean up" AC current and "improve" the performance of gear beyond a simple surge protector?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Do you know if these devices actually "clean up" AC current and "improve" the performance of gear beyond a simple surge protector?
Their functions are entirely different and not interchangeable. The answer is you need both. Please read through this thread carefully, it explains everything in detail.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for doing the search; I appreciate that.

I was looking for something closer to the $100 or under mark. Not sure this exists for a decent conditioner...
My 2c:
Furman AC-215A.
Furman is very known and highly respectably company and doesn't have "brand" related price add-ons like some companies do (even APC)

I'd pick Furman over same priced APC any day ...
 

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