Power amp

[Bryceo]

So if my understanding is correct my avr has enough power to drive my speakers?


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

So if my understanding is correct my avr has enough power to drive my speakers?


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

To answer your question, the minimum requirement is to use the following score system.

When to Add External Amplification to an A/V Receiver | Audioholics

 

[Bryceo]

That's made it even worse, I'm going to need a power amp I like loud powerful quality music,


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[afterlife2]

That's made it even worse, I'm going to need a power amp I like loud powerful quality music,

Get some wireless headphones.

 

[PENG]

That's made it even worse, I'm going to need a power amp I like loud powerful quality music,


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

If your score is high then it is good to get that power amp but go with one that is rated at least 200W.

 

[Bryceo]

My score was 6, guess who's getting a power amp this week


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[Bryceo]

Here's the specs of the power amp
I like it and its functional for the price and it has the features I need, and for the price i can't complain, it's cheap and good


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[Goliath]

That's made it even worse, I'm going to need a power amp I like loud powerful quality music,


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

Loud powerful music? How loud is 'loud'? If you have access to an SPL meter you can determine how loud the average/peak readings are in your room, with the music you listen to. For all I know 'loud' is 95 dB, as it's very loud for my tastes! I can't listen to music for more than a few seconds at 95 dB continuously.

If you are like me, I listen to music on average between 65-75 dB SPL with SPL peaks upwards of 15-20 dB, on well recorded music. If you listen at what I consider to be very loud volumes, in terms of peak SPL, then you most likely won't need a power amp. A good AVR would suffice with any speaker of moderate sensitivity at those SPL levels.

Of course, there are a vocal group of people who think a power amp will benefit your speakers at all power levels, even if the AVR was not stressed or clipping, but I wouldn't pay them any attention. Also keep in mind that if your current amplifier can deliver in excess of 100W into 8 ohms, then doubling up to 200W will result in a rather measly 3 dB SPL advantage = not much. Of course, this is assuming you actually turn the volume up high enough to warrant the additional power reserves. If not, then ...

If you want a significant jump in SPL = 6-10 dB, then you'll need 4-10 times the power, and the chances are high that your speakers won't be able to survive 4-10 times the power without suffering from thermal damage. If you need more power than what you've got then you need a lot more than you think. Without knowing how loud you intend on playing your music we can only speculate as to your power requirements.

 

[Goliath]

The Revel F208s which have recommended power handling of 50 to 350 watts.
Revels can handle power and I have played the F206s at reference volume with a Parasound A21 and they never faltered.

At the same volume level, there is no reason to believe that a 2000 watt digital amp is going to blow them up any more than the 250 watt Parasound. So, I don't get that argument.

You could use an arc-welder and you still wouldn't blow anything up. If the rated power is supplied to the load, then you'll have problems, assuming the load can't handle the thermal demands. Assuming 2000 watts, the Revels will be toast long before you reach anywhere close to that number.

However, if we have 50 watt average and 10 Db peaks than 500 watts peak power is required. The F208s will handle the peak. An AVR is not going to cut and will current limit, compressing the sound and pushing more power to the mid-upper range than a non-clipping amp.

Your hypothetical example is beyond extreme given the crest factor of musical signals and the average sensitivity of most speakers on the market. Music has a ratio of average to peak energy some 50-100 times greater than the average in very well recorded music. Compressed music can have a crest factor of between 6-9 dB. Your average power could be anywhere between less than 1W-3W. 50 watts?

Just because an amp clips doesn't mean it's a death sentence to a speaker. It depends on the severity of the clipping and the duration.

 

[Bryceo]

I listen threw the avr today to some of my favourite songs, at what I consider high volumes, I then had it tested by a local audio guy, whom said I'm not even uesing half the power of the avr, so maybe a power amp is rended mute for the time being we try'd a blue ray and he said the power to volume in witch we listen at is more then ample he said my avr is quiet powerful and the only reason people step up to a power amp is with smaller receivers that do 60-70w per channel, where I'm doing 140 in to 8 ohms on the mains in music, and 100 in to the mains at movie level he then tested to see what was uesd at the time, music was 55 watts per channel plenty left to play with and a movie was 50 watts across the mains and I'm sure you can calculate the Center rear surrounds and side surround


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[RichB]

If you are like me, I listen to music on average between 65-75 dB SPL with SPL peaks upwards of 15-20 dB, on well recorded music. If you listen at what I consider to be very loud volumes, in terms of peak SPL, then you most likely won't need a power amp. A good AVR would suffice with any speaker of moderate sensitivity at those SPL levels.

Sometimes I am like you, sometimes not so much

Of course, there are a vocal group of people who think a power amp will benefit your speakers at all power levels, even if the AVR was not stressed or clipping, but I wouldn't pay them any attention. Also keep in mind that if your current amplifier can deliver in excess of 100W into 8 ohms, then doubling up to 200W will result in a rather measly 3 dB SPL advantage = not much. Of course, this is assuming you actually turn the volume up high enough to warrant the additional power reserves. If not, then ...

It depends on your speakers, room size, music.
Some 100 watt AVRs are rated using 1Kz tones and have far less power over the full frequency range.
At 30Hz, it and 8 ohms it may produce much less. Many speakers have high phase angles and low impedance at these frequencies. If a peak, drum kick requires 100 watts, such a receiver will not provide that power.
So, speakers that could produce that sound will not.

If you want a significant jump in SPL = 6-10 dB, then you'll need 4-10 times the power, and the chances are high that your speakers won't be able to survive 4-10 times the power without suffering from thermal damage. If you need more power than what you've got then you need a lot more than you think. Without knowing how loud you intend on playing your music we can only speculate as to your power requirements.

Well that depends on the speakers. But, I expect that "most" high-quality speakers can survive a musical peak at 10 or 20 times the average power. My speakers are 4 ohms through most of the frequency range. The Parasound A51 can deliver 400 watts and specs say has 1.5 DB of headroom. That puts it at 600 watts peak at 4 ohms. Without knowing the AVR's peak power capabilities computations of headroom versys are not accurate.

I have not seen reports of folks buying 200 to 300 watt amps complaining about blown speakers.
It seems like there are more reports of AVRs thermal shutdowns.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

You could use an arc-welder and you still wouldn't blow anything up. If the rated power is supplied to the load, then you'll have problems, assuming the load can't handle the thermal demands. Assuming 2000 watts, the Revels will be toast long before you reach anywhere close to that number.



Your hypothetical example is beyond extreme given the crest factor of musical signals and the average sensitivity of most speakers on the market. Music has a ratio of average to peak energy some 50-100 times greater than the average in very well recorded music. Compressed music can have a crest factor of between 6-9 dB. Your average power could be anywhere between less than 1W-3W. 50 watts?

Just because an amp clips doesn't mean it's a death sentence to a speaker. It depends on the severity of the clipping and the duration.

Well, I am not talking about ARC welders

Let's go with your well recorded music 50 to 100X peak power.
So 5 watts average in a large room with such a record can have peaks of 500 watts.
If I use a Crown amps with 2K watts, it still delivers 500 watts.

However, if I use a 100 watts AVR, it likely will not produce the 500 watts and the sound will be attenuated.

There is no substitute for using some restraint when selecting the volume level, but there is no reason to select an amp to save your from yourself. That's what AVR/Processor maximum volume level settings are for. If you want to play music loud and clean, buy speaker to suit your tastes.

- Rich

 

[Bryceo]

Lets just say the power amp is no longer needed thanks for everyone whom offered advice and there thoughts and brains to the table,


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[Goliath]

Some 100 watt AVRs are rated using 1Kz tones and have far less power over the full frequency range.
At 30Hz, it and 8 ohms it may produce much less. Many speakers have high phase angles and low impedance at these frequencies.

Sure, receivers may supply less power over a wide bandwidth, but there is no good reason to think it is a real world problem for most people, at typical listening levels. If people want to use worst case scenarios, then fine, don't use an AVR. Get the biggest and baddest power amp you can afford. The chances are that you'll probably suffer from permanent hearing damage before long. I value my hearing, personally.

I've run B&W 802 Diamonds off a Marantz SR-6008 receiver to prove a point to myself. I could drive them full-range at levels higher than I normally listen, listening to Yello, at a 2.5 meter distance and they (and I) survived the onslaught just fine. Beautiful sound, no audible clipping to speak of. I'm sure had I felt the need, I could have raised the volume further before the onset of clipping.

Now most people who buy 802's will probably never consider an AVR - they'll partner the speakers with all manner of high-end, super powerful amplifiers, but the reality is, one does not need high power in order to drive speakers well.

If a peak, drum kick requires 100 watts, such a receiver will not provide that power.

Depends on the receiver. Receivers are tested using pure tones and resistive loads that are many times more stressful than actual musical signals or loudspeakers. In fact, you could say that it's almost a walk in the park compared to the bench testing which is like an amplifiers worst nightmare.

With actual music, receivers have MUCH more headroom than what is indicated on the test bench! On the test bench, resistive loads are used to keep impedance constant which is many times more stressful than a real loudspeaker that has a constantly varying impedance!

Music has a wide crest factor, which is many times less stressful to amplifiers than pure sine wave testing on the bench. When all is said and done, receivers are relived to be off the bench! It is a nightmare scenario for amplifiers. Everything else will seem like a walk in the park by way of comparison!

 

[big2bird]

............................ one does not need high power in order to drive speakers

That certainly depends on the speaker efficiency and volume desired.

 

[Bryceo]

Mod lock this post cheers


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[Steve81]

Your wish is my command.