Potential Flaw in My RZ50?

[Squishman]

I got my AVR three years ago and it has operated flawlessly as far as I can tell. I happened upon this YT video and was wondering if any of you brain wizards can tell me if there is anything to what he says about it. I use an external three channel amp across the front, using the pre-amp outs of course, which is exactly where he says the flaw lies. The segment starts at the 7:25 mark and goes for about 90 seconds. My question is that if the main amp in the AVR starts clipping, will it be audible or will it cause any harm to my speakers or BasX 3 channel amp due to a dirty signal? It sounds clean and fabulous even at very loud levels. I rarely play more than say two LP's at a time (usually about one LP), so the AVR probably doesn't have time to heat up much if that could be a factor.

 

[highfigh]

I got my AVR three years ago and it has operated flawlessly as far as I can tell. I happened upon this YT video and was wondering if any of you brain wizards can tell me if there is anything to what he says about it. I use an external three channel amp across the front, using the pre-amp outs of course, which is exactly where he says the flaw lies. The segment starts at the 7:25 mark and goes for about 90 seconds. My question is that if the main amp in the AVR starts clipping, will it be audible or will it cause any harm to my speakers or BasX 3 channel amp due to a dirty signal? It sounds clean and fabulous even at very loud levels. I rarely play more than say two LP's at a time (usually about one LP), so the AVR probably doesn't have time to heat up much if that could be a factor.

Clipping is caused by the power supply being asked to do what it can't. It's not a hard line in the sand, it starts just at the peaks and since music is dynamic, it's not constant, as it is with a distorted musical instrument. If it's constantly clipping, the first to go is the tweeters because the harmonics produced aren't audible and that means the level control's position won't be changed by the operator since the distortion isn't obvious.

If you set the input level controls on the power amp (assuming it has controls for this), you shouldn't have any problems with clipping as long as the AVR isn't cranked wide open or past whatever point where it can distort.

When I set up AV systems, I NEVER leave the volume control limit to Off- I ALWAYS set it to -10dB because someone, somewhere, will try to go WOT. Often, rated power from an AVR or integrated amp will be reached when the volume control knob reaches about 1:00- not a hard & fast rule, but it allows for turning it up if the source or source material isn't as loud as other LPs tapes, sources (a separate tuner is a decent reference if metering isn't available).

I would have to think that the SPL will be very high by the time clipping occurs in your system.

I dont know how much power the amps can produce, but I would bet that if the turntable is in the room with the speakers, feedback will start before the amplifiers will clip.

 

[Squishman]

I would have to think that the SPL will be very high by the time clipping occurs in your system.

I dont know how much power the amps can produce, but I would bet that if the turntable is in the room with the speakers, feedback will start before the amplifiers will clip.

So it shouldn't be a huge concern, even for my tweeters unless I play music at Deep Purple-like concert level SPL? Do I have that about correct?

 

[TLS Guy]

So it shouldn't be a huge concern, even for my tweeters unless I play music at Deep Purple-like concert level SPL? Do I have that about correct?

If a power amp is not producing any power, which it won't be, if no speakers are connected, it can't clip and it won't be drawing much power from the power supply either. If the receiver amps were class A which they are not in your receiver, there would be merit in what he as to say. So forget about it.

 

[Squishman]

If a power amp is not producing any power, which it won't be, if no speakers are connected, it can't clip and it won't be drawing much power from the power supply either. If the receiver amps were class A which they are not in your receiver, there would be merit in what he as to say. So forget about it.

Well that's great!

 

[lovinthehd]

Why would one want to consider this watch the frick guy worthy in the first place?

 

[highfigh]

So it shouldn't be a huge concern, even for my tweeters unless I play music at Deep Purple-like concert level SPL? Do I have that about correct?

I want to start by writing that I think you have a really good system, but.......

Proper system design involves knowing the size of the venue, SPL needed, headroom needed, amplifier power output, number of speakers and their sensitivity and a lot of other details. Your system (and most, really) will never reach Deep Purple levels at all, let alone in a convincing/real concert level. Not gonna happen. Their PA systems are pushing close to 100K Watts and they use high sensitivity line arrays with active crossovers (sometimes as high as 104dB/W/M, large woofers in horn-loaded cabinets and above all, they use compression and limiting to prevent damaging their speakers and amplifiers. There's no way most home systems will sound the same, partly because of the size of the rooms. Loud, sure. Deep bass, definitely. The same, nope.

If your amplifiers were chosen without concern for dymanic headroom and the speakers aren't extremely sensitive, tweeters won't survive if the system is pushed to its limit on a regular basis and that leads to a comment about power- more than enough is just right, but the speakers need to be able to survive it.

Consumer audio equipment can be excellent, but the sound of a live show is very different- 5" midrange drivers vs 10" or 12" sound very different- a snare drum is very strong in the mids amd mid-bass but small drivers don't hit as hard. Go to a gig at a small venue early enough to be there for the sound check and pay attention to the sound from the drums. You'll feel them, not just hear them. The bass guitar- you'll feel that too, but with more of your body than what most home systems cause. Keyboards? Some keyboard sounds will shake the house and everyone inside but rarely when the sound is coming from a home stereo or AV system. How many times have you felt bass from the music with your feet on the sidewalk outside of a house?

Room size has a lot to do with how realistic the sound will be and small rooms can't do that without some way to delay sounds electronically.

This all sounds negative, but designing a system for loud, live music is very different from designing a system for residential use.

 

[Squishman]

I want to start by writing that I think you have a really good system, but.......

Proper system design involves knowing the size of the venue, SPL needed, headroom needed, amplifier power output, number of speakers and their sensitivity and a lot of other details. Your system (and most, really) will never reach Deep Purple levels at all, let alone in a convincing/real concert level. Not gonna happen. Their PA systems are pushing close to 100K Watts and they use high sensitivity line arrays with active crossovers (sometimes as high as 104dB/W/M, large woofers in horn-loaded cabinets and above all, they use compression and limiting to prevent damaging their speakers and amplifiers. There's no way most home systems will sound the same, partly because of the size of the rooms. Loud, sure. Deep bass, definitely. The same, nope.

If your amplifiers were chosen without concern for dymanic headroom and the speakers aren't extremely sensitive, tweeters won't survive if the system is pushed to its limit on a regular basis and that leads to a comment about power- more than enough is just right, but the speakers need to be able to survive it.

Consumer audio equipment can be excellent, but the sound of a live show is very different- 5" midrange drivers vs 10" or 12" sound very different- a snare drum is very strong in the mids amd mid-bass but small drivers don't hit as hard. Go to a gig at a small venue early enough to be there for the sound check and pay attention to the sound from the drums. You'll feel them, not just hear them. The bass guitar- you'll feel that too, but with more of your body than what most home systems cause. Keyboards? Some keyboard sounds will shake the house and everyone inside but rarely when the sound is coming from a home stereo or AV system. How many times have you felt bass from the music with your feet on the sidewalk outside of a house?

Room size has a lot to do with how realistic the sound will be and small rooms can't do that without some way to delay sounds electronically.

This all sounds negative, but designing a system for loud, live music is very different from designing a system for residential use.

Thx. I am really happy with my system. And the other systems in my home.
I was being facetious about Deep Purple concert lever spl. I was just referring to playing it loud. I do not do that often, but I do at times.

 

[highfigh]

Thx. I am really happy with my system. And the other systems in my home.
I was being facetious about Deep Purple concert lever spl. I was just referring to playing it loud. I do not do that often, but I do at times.

I get it, really- Deep Purple had a reputation as the loudest band, for quite awhile.

 

[lovinthehd]

I get it, really- Deep Purple had a reputation as the loudest band, for quite awhile.

Nah, more The Who for that.

 

[highfigh]

Nah, more The Who for that.

I didn't say they were the loudest, just that they had the reputation. The Who killed DP's 117dB by 9dB- that's insane. I like loud at times and I really like The Who, but I wouldn't want to be in 126dB.

 

[Squishman]

Nah, more The Who for that.

Saw The Who three times. Twice with Keith Moon at the kit.

 

[lovinthehd]

Saw The Who three times. Twice with Keith Moon at the kit.

Lots of them could and would crank it, like the Dead's Wall of Sound. I got to work on a few segments of a Who tour and did some work for their lighting company, went to a few shows. I think the Guinness record was The Who's for a while at least, tho.

 

[carlosadar]

Clipping is caused by the power supply being asked to do what it can't. It's not a hard line in the sand, it starts just at the peaks and since music is dynamic, it's not constant, as it is with a distorted musical instrument. If it's constantly clipping, the first to go is the tweeters because the harmonics produced aren't audible and that means the level control's position won't be changed by the operator since the distortion isn't obvious.

If you set the input level controls on the power amp (assuming it has controls for this), you shouldn't have any problems with clipping as long as the AVR isn't cranked wide open or past whatever point where it can distort.

When I set up AV systems, I NEVER leave the volume control limit to Off- I ALWAYS set it to -10dB because someone, somewhere, will try to go WOT. Often, rated power from an AVR or integrated amp will be reached when the volume control knob reaches about 1:00, not a hard and fast rule, but it allows for turning it up if the source or source material isn’t as loud as others; think of it like choosing high quality black shirts, where consistency and reliability matter across different situations.

I would have to think that the SPL will be very high by the time clipping occurs in your system.

I dont know how much power the amps can produce, but I would bet that if the turntable is in the room with the speakers, feedback will start before the amplifiers will clip.

Hello. I have noticed a bunch of threads with various queries and questions about the RZ50 so i figured i would create a thread so we can work things out and give each over advice. I have had the receiver about 2 months and its beautiful and packs a punch. I tried to use the set up menu recently after getting a new subwoofer and i keep getting a blue screen and a please wait message. The dirac app doesnt connect either. Does anyone know how to fix this? I read somewhere that if you connect the receiver with a LAN cable it fixes this but i have had no luck. Anyone had the issue and have a fix?

 

[Squishman]

Hello. I have noticed a bunch of threads with various queries and questions about the RZ50 so i figured i would create a thread so we can work things out and give each over advice. I have had the receiver about 2 months and its beautiful and packs a punch. I tried to use the set up menu recently after getting a new subwoofer and i keep getting a blue screen and a please wait message. The dirac app doesnt connect either. Does anyone know how to fix this? I read somewhere that if you connect the receiver with a LAN cable it fixes this but i have had no luck. Anyone had the issue and have a fix?

Maybe it needs a firmware update.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello. I have noticed a bunch of threads with various queries and questions about the RZ50 so i figured i would create a thread so we can work things out and give each over advice. I have had the receiver about 2 months and its beautiful and packs a punch. I tried to use the set up menu recently after getting a new subwoofer and i keep getting a blue screen and a please wait message. The dirac app doesnt connect either. Does anyone know how to fix this? I read somewhere that if you connect the receiver with a LAN cable it fixes this but i have had no luck. Anyone had the issue and have a fix?

We need much more detail on your problem. You can't give too much detail, and your post is woefully deficient for us to be able to give you any useful advice.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hello. I have noticed a bunch of threads with various queries and questions about the RZ50 so i figured i would create a thread so we can work things out and give each over advice. I have had the receiver about 2 months and its beautiful and packs a punch. I tried to use the set up menu recently after getting a new subwoofer and i keep getting a blue screen and a please wait message. The dirac app doesnt connect either. Does anyone know how to fix this? I read somewhere that if you connect the receiver with a LAN cable it fixes this but i have had no luck. Anyone had the issue and have a fix?

I'd try a soft reset (unplug the avr from power for a bit) or a full microprocessor/factory reset if that doesn't clear up those glitches. LAN cables aren't magic.

 

[highfigh]

Hello. I have noticed a bunch of threads with various queries and questions about the RZ50 so i figured i would create a thread so we can work things out and give each over advice. I have had the receiver about 2 months and its beautiful and packs a punch. I tried to use the set up menu recently after getting a new subwoofer and i keep getting a blue screen and a please wait message. The dirac app doesnt connect either. Does anyone know how to fix this? I read somewhere that if you connect the receiver with a LAN cable it fixes this but i have had no luck. Anyone had the issue and have a fix?

Are you using WiFi for connection and updates? Don't- hardwire it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Haven't had a hardwire connection to an avr for network for more than 14 years....not an issue.

 

[TLS Guy]

Haven't had a hardwire connection to an avr for network for more than 14 years....not an issue.

You will!