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stalag2005

Audioholic
On my 2.1 computer audio system, I am contemplating an upgrade from my Martin Logan LX16's and my Pinnacle subwoofer. After hearing about SVS speakers, I am going to throw this out as a possible upgrade in the price point I am sensitive to.


This is by no means a firm deal, and if you have other ideas I would be all ears so to speak. This is a set and needs to work with an amplifier that can do 50W per channel at 8 ohms or 100W per channel at 4 ohms. Replacement of the amplifier will not happen. Given these parameters, can you come up with a better sounding system? Max budget including tax/shipping not to exceed $2000.

I need to add that 3 feet max is the distance from speakers to ears (computer audio output) and that I need clarity as I need to hear spoken videos for work purposes as well as possible you tube and my own mp3 collection. I have a much better system for movies and other in the living room!

Also large is not a real option. These speakers have to live in a confined area to work for me.
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
If you want a very nice and seriously good performing speaker, look at the new Mini Monitors from Philharmonic Audio. I have a pair of the older Mini-Phils featuring a Raal 64-10 and Zaph 5" Woofer. The updated speaker is at least as good in most ways, but the woofer is supposed to be even stronger, while maintaining almost all of the performance of the old Raal tweeter. The new design uses 2nd order filters allowing for some better sensitivity and a lower XO point that the Raal ribbon allowed for.
So far, early response is this refreshed 2-way speaker is bonkers good. ;)
Dennis is known for designing speakers with Flat FR and very neutral and accurate sound. Along with his own efforts, he is also the XO wizard for Salk Sound.
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
If you want a very nice and seriously good performing speaker, look at the new Mini Monitors from Philharmonic Audio. I have a pair of the older Mini-Phils featuring a Raal 64-10 and Zaph 5" Woofer. The updated speaker is at least as good in most ways, but the woofer is supposed to be even stronger, while maintaining almost all of the performance of the old Raal tweeter. The new design uses 2nd order filters allowing for some better sensitivity and a lower XO point that the Raal ribbon allowed for.
So far, early response is this refreshed 2-way speaker is bonkers good. ;)
Dennis is known for designing speakers with Flat FR and very neutral and accurate sound. Along with his own efforts, he is also the XO wizard for Salk Sound.
And what subwoofer would you recommend and the package price out the door for $2K?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
And what subwoofer would you recommend and the package price out the door for $2K?
Whatever Sub you want...You didn't elaborate your needs in that regard. Frankly, for simple usage and if you don't need infrasonic output, I'd look at something like the Speedwoofer. The SVS options are good too...
End of the day, you need to match your connectivity options for Amp and sub... or are you using speaker level connection? (Gotta share if you want advice. ;) )

Regardless, there really are a lot of ways you could take this, but in terms of a smaller 2-way speaker, and a requirement for near-field listening, I would look for wide dispersion rather than controlled directivity. Beyond that, you want clear dialog (a reasonable request and expectation) which can be met quite easily with Dennis' work.
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
Maybe I was at fault. I checked the settings on the subwoofer and it was turned all the way up to a 150 Hz crossover. After checking the Martin Logan specifications of 60Hz - 25KHz in frequency, I turned the subwoofer down to 75 Hz crossover. It sounds much better. Could it have been a subwoofer setting? Given this, the Pinnacle subwoofer ranges from a 50 Hz to 150HZ with that split in half at 75 Hz. Would turning that down a bit more help further?

Which leads to the question, is it possible to ask too much of a woofer?
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
I have talked with SVS. With the Martin Logan LX -16's, would I do better by upgrading the subwoofer to an SVS SB-3000? Is the subwoofer I currently have holding the Martin Logan speakers back?

Holding the crossover at 70 Hz seems to have cleaned up the audio to a good degree on the old Pinnacle.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Not completely following you...
But yes, you can ask too much from a woofer. Any Driver, really.

You can expect it to play lower than it physically can, and you can expect it to play higher. Both are deleterious to SQ.

Just in an academic sense:
If you have small 2-way standmounts, that perform well down to 60Hz, I would still cross those to a sub, even if just for music.
I would still follow the advice of crossing them around 100-120Hz. This takes power demand off a small woofer that is not designed to authoritatively perform strongly that low. (Sure it may sound good at reasonable volume levels, but lets consider that the LF performance still doesn't excel at even the bottom frequencies of Bass Guitar.)
Many of our friends here have agreed that a higher XO to Sub is advantagious to Mid Range and Treble SQ, while offloading the frequencies that demand more power to a specialized component.

I would still look for matching Sub and Speaker accordingly, in that I would want my Sub to perform well up to around 200Hz, even if I don't really use all of that, while at the same time searching for something that will at least cover the full range of piano. (Lets face it, you need a Big Sub if you are chasing Pipe Organ or other Infrasonics.)
Assuming a second order slope, a small 2-way should be well protected by offloading at 100Hz, and the same will go for the Sub. Though you won't be in danger of over-excursion at higher frequencies, some of those drivers just don't perform well at higher frequencies to to cone break up or whatever.

Hope that helps as I try to answer something I "think" you are asking.

If not, please detail exactly what's going on: what you are experiencing and your full equipment list. With that, we can better answer your question. :)
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
I don't think after playing with the settings that the Pinnacle 100 subwoofer has the dynamic range. It would not surprise me if that was the case. At this point after a chat with Sam at SVS, he told me that the warehouse is only like 4 hours away from my doorstep. Given that and a 45 day trial, I am considering pulling the trigger to try a SB-3000. I presume that the SVS speaker will have much more authority than the Pinnacle 100. Just so you all know what I am looking at on the current system the subwoofer is the following link


And this is the proposed replacement


And this is the speakers I am matching to.


I am sorry about this turning into a subwoofer thread, but testing of the Martin Logan LX-16 speakers show nothing wrong with the speakers. I tested them with clips from my mp3 collection for my musical tastes. Being the Martin Logans are 5 ohm the amp I have is closer to the 100 watts per channel which would play way louder than comfortable but are heading towards reference. I was told by Sam (at SVS) that the SB-3000 he has is closer to that reference aspect I am looking for due to it's much greater dynamic range than the equivalent 1000 or 2000 series. For the day the Pinnacle worked well for me, but I recently cleaned up my living room enough to recommission my main 7.1 surround sound system. The DSP-3100 Paradigm was a far superior speaker to the Pinnacle but that failed or I would have used it instead. The 100 watt amp in the sub is what is limiting as well as the speaker itself for the Pinnacle.

The Martin Logan speakers due to design are "bright" (only way I have to describe) and needs a good woofer to help balance them out. I am in the process of retuning and balancing things out now on the audio side after the 2nd computer rebuild in a year. I don't need loud but I do need faithful replication that comes as close as possible without spending crazy money for a reference level subwoofer.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
The Pinnacle isn't even in the same league not even close

But can I ask why an SB instead of a PB
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
The Pinnacle isn't even in the same league not even close

But can I ask why an SB instead of a PB
When I talked to Sam at SVS it was his recommendation. He said I would be happier with the SB vs. the PB all other things being equal. Listening mix as the computer is a working component as I log in daily to work to analyze documents, at times they require training videos (voice) and I need good equipment to hear what I am supposed to learn. If I need better for entertainment I still have the living room system that is being rebuilt.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Imo, that pinnacle needs a one way trip to the dump. Listed FR begins at 33hz. Not a subwoofer at all... not even in it’s day. It is absolutely holding back the ML’s.
The sb3000 on the other hand is an amazing high quality sub. I prefer ported subs personally, but the SB3K is a sealed sub worthy of considering, especially if space is tight.

But is this for the computer system? Or the theater?
Confused...
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
Imo, that pinnacle needs a one way trip to the dump. Listed FR begins at 33hz. Not a subwoofer at all... not even in it’s day. It is absolutely holding back the ML’s.
The sb3000 on the other hand is an amazing high quality sub. I prefer ported subs personally, but the SB3K is a sealed sub worthy of considering, especially if space is tight.

But is this for the computer system? Or the theater?
Confused...
Computer system. However depending on the other purchase I made, it might make it to the main 7.1 system. I actually need 2 subs due to one not being adequate, and one that failed. I like Paradigm and I have a Defiance X12 in shipment at this time. I will compare the two and use one where I feel it is best placed. And yes I do have 2 systems, one is a 2.1 system on my computer and the other is a 7.1 in my living room!
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Computer system. However depending on the other purchase I made, it might make it to the main 7.1 system. I actually need 2 subs due to one not being adequate, and one that failed. I like Paradigm and I have a Defiance X12 in shipment at this time. I will compare the two and use one where I feel it is best placed.
If there's a chance it would end up in your main system I would rock the ported SVS myself you could always plug the ports in the computer room
 
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stalag2005

Audioholic
The computer office is 10x12 feet and the main room is like 16X24 feet.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
The computer office is 10x12 feet and the main room is like 16X24 feet.
That sub will handle that room and it's overkill for the office I don't like the word Overkill because I don't believe in it but it truly is
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Iirc the paradigm is ported and while two would be better for that size room, the defiance series seems pretty good. I’m guessing between the pb2k pro and pb3000.(if memory serves). I think you’ll like the Paradigm in the main system, but still would look at two. I know, other people’s money right?!?! Lol

For the small computer system, I would recommend an sb2k, for size reasons, and that you aren’t looking for super crazy output. It’s a great little sub, and cheap, and CAN go to 10hz in the right room(tiny). It just won’t shake your guts very hard. Lol
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
I agree... the PB or SB 3K option is overkill for a simple little system like you are discussing. Even if you were to upgrade speakers eventually, you don't really need that much Sub in that situation. You'll have Headroom for Eons to be certain.
I'm also one of those people that think the Sealed vs Ported argument is pointless. Though, in a small sealed room, 3-4 sealed subs can have an amazing impact. ;)
I digress.
You should focus on matching multiple subs, not frankensteining different subs in a system. Audition the two subs and return what you don't like... if there is any chance you will put your new office sub in the main rig anytime in the future, than you should get matching Subs now.

Regardless: it is your system and your Ducats! :D
 

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