Poor support from Denon

[Harrison Ranch]

Patience has its limits
After purchasing an AVRS750H and being disappointed in the sound quality in stereo mode with a CD6005 player and B&W speakers, I have been unable to get a return authorization. So much for their 60 day return policy. No one answers their phones and no one responds to emails. Hours on hold later and a week of futile attempts to communicate, has left me hugely disappointed in Denon and Sound United.
Back to the stereo issue. My intent was to cut down on the number of receivers in the house and use this one for both stereo listening as well as AV.
What a disappointment. The sound in stereo mode was flat and lifeless.
I didn't bother with the big job of a full AV integration because the AVRS750H didn't pass the simple " does it sound good" test.
Decision, return the rather expensive Denon,
and purchase an integrated amp for the audiophile experience ( not Denon) and purchase a Yamaha AV receiver for the home theater. You can't rate lower than a 1 star but if you could Denon customer service would get it.
Caveat emptor. Anyone have a reco on a good sounding amp under $1K.
Denon and Marantz excluded.

 

[Pogre]

If you're unhappy with the sound then you need new speakers. As long as you have sufficient power for your speakers amplification won't change anything.

Did you run room correction?

 

[Pogre]

Which B&W speakers do you have? Some of their speakers are notoriously hard to drive and the AVR you picked is one up from the bottom tier for Denon. It doesn't have a huge power supply and if your speakers are 4 ohm speakers it could be that you're underpowered. Hard to say from your post as info and details are pretty sparse. How big is your room? How far do you sit from the speakers? And again, what speakers?

 

[Harrison Ranch]

I had the same thought so tried the Elacs.
Similar result.
I'm returning the Denon if a human being ever responds at Denon. What a disappointment.
Any thoughts on the under 1K integrated amp? This will be the dedicated audiophile system, B&W speakers, Project turntable, the best CD player out there.

 

[Pogre]

I had the same thought so tried the Elacs.
Similar result.
I'm returning the Denon if a human being ever responds at Denon. What a disappointment.
Any thoughts on the under 1K integrated amp? This will be the dedicated audiophile system, B&W speakers, Project turntable, the best CD player out there.

I think the receiver you have right now is a good receiver and sounds as good as any integrated amp. You're not gonna fix this with amplification. Which speakers have you tried? How far do you sit? How big is your room?

 

[Harrison Ranch]

Which B&W speakers do you have? Some of their speakers are notoriously hard to drive and the AVR you picked is one up from the bottom tier for Denon. It doesn't have a huge power supply and if your speakers are 4 ohm speakers it could be that you're underpowered. Hard to say from your post as info and details are pretty sparse. How big is your room? How far do you sit from the speakers? And again, what speakers?

Since I tried the Elac debuts and ran the sound setup with Audysey, 8 foot sep on speakers and 12 feet to sweet spot, I am saying that the sound reproduction on the Denon is not up to audiophile standards. Or put more gently each of us has a preferred stereo sound image. The Denon is flat and is not worth the price nor the aggravation.
Still looking for the under $1K integrated amp suggestions excluding SA.

 

[Pogre]

Since I tried the Elac debuts and ran the sound setup with Audysey, 8 foot sep on speakers and 12 feet to sweet spot, I am saying that the sound reproduction on the Denon is not up to audiophile standards. Or put more gently each of us has a preferred stereo sound image. The Denon is flat and is not worth the price nor the aggravation.
Still looking for the under $1K integrated amp suggestions excluding SA.

I have had Yamaha, Denon and Marantz receivers and used only them to power my speakers. Currently I'm running separates. You know what? They are all up to "audiophile standards". Your speakers are more likely what's not up to "audiophile standards" if you don't like the sound. That is unless your speakers are hard to drive and putting too much demand on that receiver, which is something you should have taken into consideration before buying it.

Different amplification is not going to change anything about sound quality. Not one iota. Not unless you're running out of juice with what you have right now. How about placement in your room? Got a pic so we can see what you have going on? One major, major issue we see often is less than ideal speaker placement. That has a huge impact on your sound quality as well, and we see so many people come through here who seriously underestimate the impact.

 

[lovinthehd]

The "image" is from your recording, room and speakers....not the electronics. There might be something about using low impedance speakers like B&W or Elac, tho but depends to what levels you expect to drive them.

 

[Harrison Ranch]

I think the receiver you have right now is a good receiver and sounds as good as any integrated amp. You're not gonna fix this with amplification. Which speakers have you tried? How far do you sit? How big is your room?

Which B&W speakers do you have? Some of their speakers are notoriously hard to drive and the AVR you picked is one up from the bottom tier for Denon. It doesn't have a huge power supply and if your speakers are 4 ohm speakers it could be that you're underpowered. Hard to say from your post as info and details are pretty sparse. How big is your room? How far do you sit from the speakers? And again, what speakers?

Pogre,
You hit the nail on the head, "Denon bottom of the line " These very same B& W speakers sound beautiful in the same listening room with a different amp. To my ear, the Denon AVRS750 has poor stereo rendering and is best suited to low fi mid fi AV aplications.

 

[Pogre]

The "image" is from your recording, room and speakers....not the electronics. There might be something about using low impedance speakers like B&W or Elac, tho but depends to what levels you expect to drive them.

I figure maybe one of these posts he'll give us enough info to really dig in. As it is I still have no clue which B&W speakers he's talking about...

 

[Pogre]

Pogre,
You hit the nail on the head, "Denon bottom of the line " These very same B& W speakers sound beautiful in the same listening room with a different amp. To my ear, the Denon AVRS750 has poor stereo rendering and is best suited to low fi mid fi AV aplications.

You're missing the point entirely. The Denon does not have "poor stereo rendering". It's possibly underpowered for your speakers, but that's an issue of running out of power, and has nothing to do with the overall sound quality when operating within spec. A more powerful amp will allow you to play louder, but the sound quality is going to be the same.

 

[Pogre]

I had my Ultra towers hooked up to a Denon S510BT to demo them for a sale. The 510 is not only THE bottom of the line model for Denon, it's an older model. It rocked those Ultra towers and sealed the deal for my sale, so what you're reporting to me makes no sense.

Unless your speakers are hard to drive, you sit far from them and like it loud.

 

[lovinthehd]

Pogre,
You hit the nail on the head, "Denon bottom of the line " These very same B& W speakers sound beautiful in the same listening room with a different amp. To my ear, the Denon AVRS750 has poor stereo rendering and is best suited to low fi mid fi AV aplications.

So why did you buy a low end avr if you already have an "amp" that worked?

 

[Harrison Ranch]

I have had Yamaha, Denon and Marantz receivers and used only them to power my speakers. Currently I'm running separates. You know what? They are all up to "audiophile standards". Your speakers are more likely what's not up to "audiophile standards" if you don't like the sound. That is unless your speakers are hard to drive and putting too much demand on that receiver, which is something you should have taken into consideration before buying it.

Different amplification is not going to change anything about sound quality. Not one iota. Not unless you're running out of juice with what you have right now. How about placement in your room? Got a pic so we can see what you have going on? One major, major issue we see often is less than ideal speaker placement. That has a huge impact on your sound quality as well, and we see so many people come through here who seriously underestimate the impact.

I disagree. A mid range AV receiver will not sound as good as an IA or top end receiver. Have you listened to a McIntosh receiver driving a pair of good speakers?
I have, and the Denon AVR750 sounds flat. Not about the power necessarily, but the specs, and the way each company designs the sound circuitry. Not mention tube vs IC.
For someone who has heard the intense depth imagery and quality of audiophile systems, the end result is personal preference.

 

[Harrison Ranch]

So why did you buy a low end avr if you already have an "amp" that worked?

New second sound room

 

[lovinthehd]

New second sound room

So why didn't you get another "high end" Mcintosh if you feel they have some special sound? Sure it's not just a room difference? Electronics are such a small part of the equation compared to the room and speakers....unless you want something that deliberately has a sound signature like tube stuff (yuck).

 

[Pogre]

I disagree. A mid range AV receiver will not sound as good as an IA or top end receiver.

In my experience, you are wrong.

Have you listened to a McIntosh receiver driving a pair of good speakers?

Yes.

I have, and the Denon AVR750 sounds flat. Not about the power necessarily, but the specs, and the way each company designs the sound circuitry. Not mention tube vs IC.
For someone who has heard the intense depth imagery and quality of audiophile systems, the end result is personal preference.

Ever heard of the placebo effect? Expectation bias?

I have.

Here's an interesting example of a proper DBT that refutes what you're saying.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

matrixhifi.com

I fully believe if you were to compare between an "audiophile" amp and that receiver you have now in a DBT you wouldn't be able to consistently tell which was which, as long as all else is equal and both are operating within spec. To my knowledge no one has yet, tho a true DBT is a pain to set up and get right so you don't see them done very often.

Btw, this is my experience with Mcintosh...

I think what I have right now rivals the sound I heard from that system at a fraction of the cost for amplification. So tell me something... where do you stand when it comes to expensive cables and interconnects..?

 

[Harrison Ranch]

New room for AV, but now it's going to have audiophile stereo AND home theater. So much for trying to consolidate. Btw I'm leaning towards non-tube amps

 

[lovinthehd]

New room for AV, but now it's going to have audiophile stereo AND home theater. So much for trying to consolidate. Btw I'm leaning towards non-tube amps

I've got four such systems, not hard to do.

 

[Pogre]

New room for AV, but now it's going to have audiophile stereo AND home theater. So much for trying to consolidate. Btw I'm leaning towards non-tube amps

So if sound quality is important and you have difficult to drive speakers why did you get such a cheap receiver to begin with..? For Denon I'd want at a minimum the 3700, and that has more to do with features and room correction than "audiophile qualities". a full set of preouts for adding amplification is nice too...