Please Help Me! :)

[Buckeyefan 1]

Why is that a stunt? First of all there are quite a few measurement standards: FTC, DIN, EIAJ. They each specify different test procedures.

How many here know of DIN and EIAJ?

The Yamaha website specifically states that, other than minor cosmetic differences, the HTR and RX-V lines only differ in the way their power is quoted and you guessed it, the HTR line's power is quoted using the DIN standard - which tests at 1 kHz. So I don't think it's fair to call it a 'stunt' to pull the wool over the poor dumb consumer's eyes.

Sure it is. They quote it at full bandwidth where the RX-V units are sold in higher end audio stores, for the consumers "in the know," while they use DIN standards in big box stores like BB. Where do most poor dumb consumers shop? Same place they sell Bose.

As you are no doubt aware, as the power increases so does the distortion. That same receiver that they quote as 140 watts at .7% distortion could very well have been rated at 160 watts at 1% distortion or maybe only 120 watts at .4% distortion. They pick a point on the curve and go with it because there is no specific requirement for any particular thd level to use for the power rating. This very site had an article on it not too long ago.

We are, many are not.

The FTC rating requires a full bandwidth rating but again no specific THD level. If the competition rates their receiver at 100 wpc at .08% thd and yours measures only 95 wpc at .08% but 110 wpc at .10% you would advertise the 110 wpc wouldn't you. That minute thd difference is inaudible.

It's not a level playing field. And no, I would not advertise the 110 wpc at .10 thd. Would you?

Forget about the 'average' consumer. A true audio enthusiast of the type that posts here regularly should know all the little nuances that go into power ratings.

How many "newbies" know this before going into their first purchase?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here's the Insignia specs as listed at BB:
Insignia™ 200W 2.0-Ch. Stereo Home Theater Receiver
200 watts total power: 100 watts x 2

Not until you go down 14 lines on the advertisement do you find out this power is based on a 1.00% THD rating, and at 1kHz. Lets ask them what the power is at full bandwidth: 20-20,000Hz, and at .05% THD. Unless you have some serious testing equipment, you'd never know. Do you think the average Joe knows this? It's a scam. Fortunately, most people don't fall for this tactic. They can go down 21 more lines and find this little beauty weighs a massive 17lbs (compared to the Yamaha 5890 at 33.1 lbs).

Unfortunately, Yamaha tries a similar stunt with the power ratings. They use the 1kHz and .70% THD to come to the 140 watt spec. The rating at full bandwidth, 20-20,000, and .04 THD, is 120 watts. See page 95 of the manual for these specs. It's still a great unit, but why does Yamaha have to pad the specs at increased THD and at the 1kHz bandwidth?

Lets keep a level playing field here. Lets base all power ratings at full bandwidth, at .05 THD. It's not that tough. The FTC does not require a level playing field. That's why you see HTIB systems reporting massive power specs - and this is important - in their advertisements.

This is why my unscientific method of finding a good receiver is based on my 33lb. rule. You can't fudge weight like you can power specs. RMS is fine, if someone would use it correctly-on a level playing field.

Ah, you get your specs from an advertisement? No wonder you get confused. That explains a lot.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How many "newbies" know this before going into their first purchase?

And this is unique to audio? Or, by chance, the marketplace is all about dazzling the consumer, th efish, to bite??

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Ah, you get your specs from an advertisement? No wonder you get confused. That explains a lot.

Marty, sometimes I wonder how your comments help this forum. It's easy to tell when one's at a loss for words. That's the best you've got? As I've told you before, you have the knowledge to help people. Why you choose not to is beyond me.

 

[MacManNM]

Ah, you get your specs from an advertisement? No wonder you get confused. That explains a lot.

As I have been reading this thread I see that Buck and others are trying to give reasonable helpful advice, whereas you are being an idiot. If you aren't going to bring any useful information to the table then stay out of it.

 

[MDS]

All I am saying is that it is caveat emptor in audio, just as anything else. If one is really interested in this stuff and wants to compare apples to apples he should learn all about it. It's only the people like us they know and care about the little distinctions - J6P could care less.

My Onkyo lists the power using FTC, DIN, and EIAJ - of course they don't spell out the difference between those ratings. It's only because I am the curious type that I spent some time looking up the differences between them.

 

[Pyrrho]

Here's the Insignia specs as listed at BB:
Insignia™ 200W 2.0-Ch. Stereo Home Theater Receiver
200 watts total power: 100 watts x 2

Not until you go down 14 lines on the advertisement do you find out this power is based on a 1.00% THD rating, and at 1kHz. Lets ask them what the power is at full bandwidth: 20-20,000Hz, and at .05% THD. Unless you have some serious testing equipment, you'd never know. Do you think the average Joe knows this? It's a scam. Fortunately, most people don't fall for this tactic. They can go down 21 more lines and find this little beauty weighs a massive 17lbs (compared to the Yamaha 5890 at 33.1 lbs).

Unfortunately, Yamaha tries a similar stunt with the power ratings. They use the 1kHz and .70% THD to come to the 140 watt spec. The rating at full bandwidth, 20-20,000, and .04 THD, is 120 watts. See page 95 of the manual for these specs. It's still a great unit, but why does Yamaha have to pad the specs at increased THD and at the 1kHz bandwidth?

Lets keep a level playing field here. Lets base all power ratings at full bandwidth, at .05 THD. It's not that tough. The FTC does not require a level playing field. That's why you see HTIB systems reporting massive power specs - and this is important - in their advertisements.

This is why my unscientific method of finding a good receiver is based on my 33lb. rule. You can't fudge weight like you can power specs. RMS is fine, if someone would use it correctly-on a level playing field.

Not that it matters much, but you misread the specifications at the link you provided: It is 10% THD, not 1.00%, so it is worse than you represent. I also don't see where they say what frequency or frequencies they are talking about, though it may be 1 kHz, as you say.

However, what you seem to be saying now is that specifications DO mean something, but the problem is that they are not adequately standardized. Before, however, you stated that specifications did not mean anything. If you say that something is meaningless when you believe it is meaningful, you may receive responses from people who disagree with what you said, but agree with what you believe.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Not that it matters much, but you misread the specifications at the link you provided: It is 10% THD, not 1.00%, so it is worse than you represent. I also don't see where they say what frequency or frequencies they are talking about, though it may be 1 kHz, as you say.

However, what you seem to be saying now is that specifications DO mean something, but the problem is that they are not adequately standardized. Before, however, you stated that specifications did not mean anything. If you say that something is meaningless when you believe it is meaningful, you may receive responses from people who disagree with what you said, but agree with what you believe.

You are absolutely right. I was not clear on that at all. I was poking fun at Insignia on a HTIB system for the RMS ratings. This was the particular url:
http://www.insignia-products.com/pc-39-5-insignia-1000w-61-ch-home-theater-system-with-progressive-scan-dvdcdmp3-player.aspx

The receiver in question was a two channel Insignia listed at Best Buy. Insignia doesn't even list their receivers on the website.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7016481&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1099394773324

Specs do mean something if everyone is on a level playing field. If everyone would honestly quote their units at, say .05 thd, 8 ohms, power rms into two channels at full bandwidth of 20-20,000 Hz, it would be a start.

Here's a reason why, to me, it's just a start and not an end all. Check out the specs on this Sony. I used to have a 9 series right out of college in the early 90's (it was a previous generation with the same specs). I used to push it pretty hard, and it would overheat and shut down all the time. My newer Denon 3805 rarely ever did that with my the same speakers (since then I've upgraded). The specs on the Sony look impressive, but the Sony never came close to the results I get from the Denon 3805. This Sony unit only weighs 24lbs, while the Denon 3805 is 37lbs. Larger heat sinks with similar specs allow the Denon to run longer, cooler, which in turn means less distortion and better sound.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7118399&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&id=1110264894246

There are other specs listed on power amps that you rarely see listed on receivers. Some are signal to noise ratio, input impedence, input sensitivity, output current, headroom, circuit configuration, and damping factor. Check out the McIntosh website sometime and you'll see how some heavy duty amps are rated. A 100 watt McIntosh amp will put my 120 watt Denon 3805 to shame, just as my Denon outperformed my older Sony.

Sorry for the confusion! I appreciate the correction.