Pioneer versus Denon

[rambios]

I am seriously in the market for a new home theater receiver. My equipment for audio includes the following:

Rega Planet CD Player
Jolida Tube Integrated
Pinnacle Floor Standing

For the home theater, we have set up the following:
Martin Logan Montage: Left and Right
Cheap Sony Sub - soon to be replaced by a Klipsch or Yamaha
Cheap Sony Surrounds-soon to be replaced by Definitive Pro 600s
Sony Center - Soon to be replaced by a Definitive Center
Samsung 56" DLP - love it!
PS3
Xbox 360
Pioneer Upconvert DVD soon to be replaced by Oppo DVD/SACD

Enough...now my question is which should I pick. The Denon 3808CI or the Pioneer Elite VSX-94THX. I will probably make the purchase in the next three months or so. I am not really sold on on sending my HDMI signals into the receiver and then to the TV...but I am hearing that the new generation of AV gear does a good job.

 

[jostenmeat]

hey nice stuff.

Couple of concerns or questions for you. I don't know how much those receivers are, but they probably are not cheap. I would prefer that you upgrade the sub to something more than Klipsch/Yamaha. I think that will affect your HT experience a LOT more than the mid-line-and-up receiver you may choose. Also, Oppo makes nice players, but their 981 is $230? $70 more gets you a BD player. They play SD dvds as well.

Sorry I did nothing to help you choose the receiver. Just wanted to voice my opinion. GL.

 

[rambios]

Thanks

Thanks GL....
I agree with your concerns on price...I happen to have the opportunity to pick up one of these receivers at a substantial discount from the retail price. I am leaning toward the Pioneer, but then some folks tell me that that Denon is the way to go. I am strong believer in the receiver being the heart of a quality system...plus I don't have the financial resources (and room) for a separate pre-amp/amp solution.

What type of sub are would you recommend.

I see your point about the BD and I use a PS3 for my BD viewing. I like the Oppo because it offers true SACD output at a price that fits my budget.

 

[jostenmeat]

I see your point about the BD and I use a PS3 for my BD viewing. I like the Oppo because it offers true SACD output at a price that fits my budget.

Hehe, duh, I totally missed that, lol. You know, Klipsch is one of the better reputed sub values for entry-mid Big Box Brand subs, AFAIK.

The usual candidates are the ID brands (although I have a BM brand). SVS, HSU, Outlaw, Epik, Elemental Design. Smaller budget may include others like Dayton, x-sub from AV123, others. I won't be the only one, but I heartily recommend in thinking overkill for the sub. It will completely change your HT experience.

Some are ugly (eD), some have long back-orders, some have pricier shipping than others, but they almost all have month long trial periods. If looks have no bearing at all, eD seems to be the best value. I'd be curious about the Epik entry sealed sub, but then there are those who believe ported subs that are tuned low enough work better for HT. (Mine is sealed).

I think most here would agree that the brands I've listed will generally get you more for the money, or just more period, than Yamaha or Klipsch.

Cheers.

 

[bandphan]

hard to go wrong with either avr. As for the sub, yes better choices have been suggested, with your center id go with a ml center like the fresco so the atf drivers are matched( and the detail is super) and maybe as your surrounds also, i returned the els center for the vignette center. The elite does well with the furuj processor on non hd signals,but you can turn off the processing and use it as pass thru.

 

[jostenmeat]

I also like the rec of the fresco-i. I find it quite interesting that you returned the esl for the atf. I found that the matching "esl"s tweeter was more sibilant than the ATF! I use the fresco, and for a lot less than the Stage etc. Fits perfectly too. The only knock I can give it is that it won't extend or dig as deep as some of the large centers you can find. For dialogue, its as good as I've heard for the money. From what I can hear, truly devoid of sibilance.

 

[Seth=L]

Since you have Martin Logan speakers already, and this doesn't mean you will get better sound from matching the sub brand with the speaker brand, but the Martin Logan Dynamo is a pretty good budget subwoofer. It is goes pretty low and loud, which defies it's size and price.

Both of those receivers are great choices, but I would likely save my money and get something a bit less if you don't need the Networking features. Something like the Harman Kardon AVR-247, Yamaha RX-V661, Onkyo TX-SR705 would all be good options. The real monster killer is the Onkyo TX-SR805. It is one powerful machine at an extraordinary price.

 

[Davidt1]

Oh yeah, the Dynamo is a good sub for its size. Here is a S&V review of the ML Montage speakers and Dynamo sub.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/840/martinlogan-montage-home-theater-speaker-system.html

 

[solomr2]

Rambios, you are at the exact same crossroads I was at a few months ago. Those 2 receivers are the exact same two receivers I was evaluating. On paper they appear to be very similar and functionally equivalent. However, sonically they do sound different.

I eventually made my choice and bought the Denon. The final decision came down to some critical listening in a demo studio and flipping back and forth between receivers while demoing multiple sound sources. What I thought I heard different between the two was the richness and fulllness from the Denon was more pleasing to me. The Pioneer appeared to be brighter and was more crisp in the trebles, but lacked in low-end and midrange punch. Adding a sub helped the Pioneer, but even with a sub it didn't achieve the mids and fullness of sound from the Denon. On the other hand, the Denon sounded a little muddled in the trebles by contrast during the back to back tests, but overall it just outshined the Pioneer in overall sound quality.

I also believe the Denon has a better GUI than the Pioneer. As for build quality and performance, I think they are pretty much equal. I did have issues with the HDMI interfaces on the Denon, some kind of HDCP handshake issues. However, this is not isolated to Denon, and several firmware updates on my receiver and the other devices has corrected most of the issues. Now I am pretty much satisfied with the HDMI performance, but I still experience some occasional flickering with the XBOX 360 Elite.

My advise to you is that you spend some time with these receivers in back to back tests, flipping back and forth. I'm pretty sure you will notice the sonic difference between them. Which one sounds better will be a matter of personal preference, but I think you will be able to discern that there is a difference in how they sound.

Good luck.

 

[rambios]

Thank You to all

I really want to thank all of you for your advice and recs. I generally do not post to the online world, but I am starting to get out of my shell!

I have heard both the Denon and Pioneer. I admit, the Denon does sound better and I am leaning toward that way. It has more punch and crispness, especially in the upper ranges. I am not much into the bass as most people I fear. My goal is transparency and clarity.

I pretty much leave my music to the the Jolida, Pinnacle, Rega system. I am kind of a audio purist in which I basically believe in two channel. I only play my collection of CDs ( hope to add vinyl by the end of year!) on this setup.

But for home theater as well as SACD, I am looking at multichannel naturally. I love the ideas on the Subs...thank you! I could pick up a Definitive Sub at a reasonable cost and I do agree that I need to match the Logans with a Logan Center...just not sure if I can afford it.

RR

 

[edmcanuck]

As has been said, don't trade your low-quality sub for a different low-quality sub. It won't matter what you have powering the system if the speakers aren't up to par. Also, try not to mix too many brands of speakers together for obvious reasons. Either receiver would be fine for you, but frankly, they're outclassing the rest of your equipment but such a long shot... the Denon 2808 would be my recommendation for you; it's more than you need and a will save you money. Denon's preamp quality can't be matched by Pioneer and Denon's power core is also stronger and more stable to lower currents. Audyssey is better than anything Pioneer has ever even dreamed of in the area of room equalization.

 

[Antus]

if you like 2 channel, denon has pure direct 2 channel input, which will turn off everything else. the whole receiver will be an analog 2 channel preamp. from the test, the preamp section on pure direct is as flat as ruler from 10Hz all the way to 20K and beyond.

 

[AD_LIB]

just my 2 cents, I have been a long time Denon fan and currently have a AVR-4306 that my Pioneer VSX-94TXH just replaced. I am moving it up into my bedroom. I went out and demoed the Yamaha 1800, 3800, and the Denon 3808CI with my heart set on getting the Denon. I ended up liking the Denon the least out of all of the recievers (to my surprise) and ended up buying the Yamaha 1800. For the money I think its one of the best recievers out right now if you don't need networking built in. However I thought maybe I was missing something about the Denon and descided to go back and listen again. Again I was dissapointed with the Denon, it sounded like a sheet was being lifted off the speakers when he switched between the Yamaha and the Denon. also the soundstage on the Yamaha was wider and the overall sound was much "warmer" and sounded more "right". Then just to really mess me up the salesman asked if I had demoed the Pioneer Elite 94. He fired it up head to head with the Yamaha and the Denon. I was immediatly drawn to it, much to my suprise and dissapointment (it was more money and I wasn;t sure about the Pioneer Elite brand.) The soundstage was both wide and deep and sounded even better than the Yamaha (although slightly brighter but still warmer than the Denon)I ended up returning the 1800 and walking out with the 94. It doesn;t have any HDMI handshake issues (Which the Denon has struggled with) and I found the MACC auto setup to be MUCH better than the Audessy unit in my Denon. It has a pretty crap GUI and will not do OSD for things like volume over HDMI which the Denon does (which is awesome and I wish I had it as my unit is in a cabinet and its impossible to see the front display without the door open). Also the video processing is good but not great. It uses the older DCDi chip similar if not the same as found in my old Denon 4306. I am driving 4ohm speakers across the L/C/R and the reciever doesn't break a sweat...then again my Denon did ok, but the Pioneer runs much cooler and sounds better. I summation I think Denon makes an excellent product, the ability to get firmware updates is kinda cool but it seems like they are simply working out bugs that should have been fixed in the first place. In my very subjective opinion the Pioneer is a better receiver if you are solely interested in audio and not too worried about the particular features that the Denon has. At the end of the day though I think at this price point its win win, you get a ton of features and lots of power and flexibility. Hope this helped

 

[AD_LIB]

The Pioneer has a pure direct mode as well.

 

[bandphan]

I also like the rec of the fresco-i. I find it quite interesting that you returned the esl for the atf. I found that the matching "esl"s tweeter was more sibilant than the ATF! I use the fresco, and for a lot less than the Stage etc. Fits perfectly too. The only knock I can give it is that it won't extend or dig as deep as some of the large centers you can find. For dialogue, its as good as I've heard for the money. From what I can hear, truly devoid of sibilance.

yep, the els centers a awesome, but i would have went and dropped anothe 4gs to get the els mains, which i wasnt ready to do yet, but you are correct

 

[Seth=L]

ITT: receivers that "sound" different.

 

[bandphan]

As has been said, don't trade your low-quality sub for a different low-quality sub. It won't matter what you have powering the system if the speakers aren't up to par. Also, try not to mix too many brands of speakers together for obvious reasons. Either receiver would be fine for you, but frankly, they're outclassing the rest of your equipment but such a long shot... the Denon 2808 would be my recommendation for you; it's more than you need and a will save you money. Denon's preamp quality can't be matched by Pioneer and Denon's power core is also stronger and more stable to lower currents. Audyssey is better than anything Pioneer has ever even dreamed of in the area of room equalization.

because???? Subjective huh,

 

[gus6464]

Doesn't anyone else see what's wrong with what the OP wants to do in terms of center and surrounds? (mix ML fronts with DT center?)

 

[bandphan]

hard to go wrong with either avr. As for the sub, yes better choices have been suggested, with your center id go with a ml center like the fresco so the atf drivers are matched( and the detail is super) and maybe as your surrounds also, i returned the els center for the vignette center. The elite does well with the furuj processor on non hd signals,but you can turn off the processing and use it as pass thru.

yep- yep

 

[AD_LIB]

i know thats recievers shouldn't sound different, but like I said subjectively head to head they did, from what I understood they were all level matched and running in direct mode. I wish someone would do an objective comparison of all of these recievers since they are in the same price bracket...sound and vision has looked at most of these, but after reading many of their reviews apparently they love everything they review so thats not particularly helpful!