Pioneer Sc-05 sound issues? Help?

[sedonalar]

I replaced my 5 yr old H/K AVR520,75w, with a Pioneer Sc-05, to get HDMI switching, + SC05 is rated at 130w versus H/K 75w. I was hoping to gain more sound detail & volume. I had even tried a Denon 3808CI via HDMI with same results. Both sounded muddy. The SC05 had to be played at +05db's to sound just ok, but lacked any real detail. No punch! I tried movies via my cox cable and dvd's & BD's through my PS3. They both sounded the same, very muddy. All were connected via blue jeans HDMI cables. I thought the sound processing via HDMI, + the added 55w & THX would sound better. It was horrible. I tried everything I knew for settings. I re-connected my H/K520 via optical/component and my Mirage OM-9's and center Om-C2 came alive at higher volumes and very clear detail. I need help, I don't understand what happened? I am going to return the SC-05. But I really wanted a HDMI switching receiver, with more power. Would a new H/K AVR with HDMI be a better choice or Yamaha; or is this a HDMI audio issue? I am stumped?

 

[Adam]

I'm glad that you decided to post! I'd welcome you to the forum, but you've been here longer than me.

Hopefully we can get you all set up so that your system is performing the way that you like. I'll start with this question - did you run the MCACC auto set-up on the Pioneer?

Also, are you using the THX sound processing? At least on my Pioneer, the THX takes some of the "brightness" out of the sound, so it would sound more dull.

 

[sedonalar]

Thank you, yes I set it up with the MCACC. I have tried it with THX and Dolby etc, with same results. Funny thing is maybe about 4-5 yrs ago I demo'd a Denon 3805 and it was more detailed & louder than my HK. I was just waiting for HDMI to get figured out. I was very surprised the Denon 3808CI was the same muddy sounding as the SC05. My gutt feeling is it's the HDMI? I called Pioneer and they condirmed my settings were right. My Mirages are 4-6 ohm speakers. Could the HK at 75w be better than SC05's 130w?

 

[Adam]

I'm no expert in this area, but I'll put up some thoughts and hopefully others will chime in.

I don't think that HDMI as a technology should be the issue, based on what I've read. I don't own any HDMI gear, so I have no first-hand experience. However, the digital signal should come across just as well as it does over optical. Many people here have been very happy with audio over HDMI.

You do have a good question about the impedance of those speakers and how the SC-05 is handling that. The lower the impedance, the higher the current draw. Whether the SC-05 is good at handling the lower impedance is outside of my knowledge. Others here probably know, though.

EDIT: BTW, do you have a subwoofer? I'm wondering if the bass management is set up the same on the SC-05 as it was on the H/K.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Try this

Hi sedonalar,

Not quite certain, but my guess is that you are listening and with the MCACC from the SC-05, and with Audyssey from the 3808ci.
Am I right?

Now, these two receivers are great receivers with plenty of power. But if you are listening through their room EQ with less than perfect setup, it is quite normal what you are saying.

Just for kick, do this: select the Pure Direct mode (whatever it's called) on your Pioneer Elite SC-05, and only in Stereo mode through your front main Mirage OM-9. Check it out, and report your impression here.

After that, I will have some more news for you. About your speakers, which I'm quite familiar with and other stuff that you might forget.

See you soon.

Bob

 

[sedonalar]

Thank you, yes I tried Pure Direct mode. I also tried stereo with a new acoustic guitar CD by Jesse Cook. They both sounded kinda of bland, highs were very muted. I am using two subs, Mirage S12, & and new Mirage Prestige S10. I think I like the S12 better though. I have a few movies I use for reference, TopGun, Master&Commander, Open range. I use jets, dialogue, guns shots to check the clarity and dynamic range. Each time my H/K sounded clearer with much more detail and db's. The H/K is currently set up. The SC05 is sitting possibly for return in 2 days. I am very frustraded.

 

[photoeye]

Hi,

what are the specs on your speakers? I set up the SC-05
this weekend and have been watching quite a few movies.
HD and Blu Ray.

I can get decent volume at around 12dB depending on the movie.
some are much louder than others. but like you said, it's
lacking punch or power. No wow factor. I believe this is simply due
to the fact it cannot drive a 4 ohm load which I'm doing. I'm running Maggies
rated at 4 ohms in 86dB.

I've decided to get the XPA-5, hopefully pretty soon and to resolve
this issue. I'm sure the ice amps works very nicely for 90dB + sens.
speakers.

 

[sedonalar]

Hi,

what are the specs on your speakers? I set up the SC-05
this weekend and have been watching quite a few movies.
HD and Blu Ray.

I can get decent volume at around 12dB depending on the movie.
some are much louder than others. but like you said, it's
lacking punch or power. No wow factor. I believe this is simply due
to the fact it cannot drive a 4 ohm load which I'm doing. I'm running Maggies
rated at 4 ohms in 86dB.

I've decided to get the XPA-5, hopefully pretty soon and to resolve
this issue. I'm sure the ice amps works very nicely for 90dB + sens.
speakers.

Mains Mirage OM-9, center Om-C2. Mirage says 4-6 ohms? I thought of getting an XPA-5 also if it didn't work out, but I would have expected better performance from 55w more power from the SC-05. It's he lack of detail that also buggs me. I am a little suspicious about Pioneer, I bought the SC-05 just under $1K from auth dealer. They cut there plasma line whats next.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Mains Mirage OM-9, center Om-C2. Mirage says 4-6 ohms? I thought of getting an XPA-5 also if it didn't work out, but I would have expected better performance from 55w more power from the SC-05. It's he lack of detail that also buggs me. I am a little suspicious about Pioneer, I bought the SC-05 just under $1K from auth dealer. They cut there plasma line whats next.

Hi sedonalar,

I was waiting for your return. Ok, Pure Direct doesn't cut it compare to your older HK.

Here's my theory: Your Mirage speakers (OM-9 and OM-C2) are Omnipolar and quite unique. They need special attention, as the right amplifier or receiver. I guess you didn't try bi-amping them by the way (OM-9)?
Anyway, not that important.
I believe that the Pioneer with a class D amp (ICE) is robbing you from the details and liveness of your Mirages. Not the best match in my book.
And the Denon 3808ci with it's reserved (laid back) and kind of bland sound, is also not a good match for your Mirages.
By the way, your speakers are rated at a nominal impedance of 6ohms. But their actual minimum impedance is just below 4ohms between 80 and 100hz (about 3.7ohms). And 4ohms between about 300 and 800hz.

Their sensitivity (actual in-room response) is around 87.5db or so.

The phase angle through the crossover region is fairly mild, +/- 30degree or less, meaning that the drivers are well matched, and ensuring that this system, while it will WANT SOME AMP CURRENT, is otherwise quite easy to drive, and should sound exceptionally COHERENT, and IMAGE well.

By thev way, the x-over between the rear-ported woofer and the front mid/woof driver is a low 200hz and the one to the tweeters is at 2khz.

Anther thing to consider (I bet you live with your HK receiver for some years now), is that you are accustom to that HK receiver, and that you did not give time enough to get use to the new sound (or the Denon AVR-3808ci, or the Pioneer Elite SC-05).

Now, you got the choice to give it some time, but I doubt it, from what I can tell. Or you return it (which you will probably do, no matter what), and try another receiver.
May I ask you what kind of budget you are figuring, and also in USA or Canadian dollars.
And, is your system configuration a full 7.1 or 7.2-channel setup? Or perhaps less?
Is there another brand of receiver you might be interested in?
Did you consider separates?

Give me some feedback, and I'll help you out the best I can for your particular speakers and situation. Also, what is the total size of your room (including adjacent openings from doors or stairs or even both)?

I'll see you soon again.

Bob

 

[sedonalar]

Wow, interesting! Large room, LR is 12X20+ opens into kitchen for another 12X20. Viewing is about 11-12' away. I love the Mirage sound, it's depth, but they are a pain placement wise. I have thought about looking at other speakers, direct radiating types. I bought the SC05 for about 1K, US $. I have thought about adding an outlaw or Emotiva amp, but I would rather have a good solid receiver to power. I can go higher, thought of the Yamaha RXV7? Gotta jam until tonight, thanx.

 

[photoeye]

Mains Mirage OM-9, center Om-C2. Mirage says 4-6 ohms? I thought of getting an XPA-5 also if it didn't work out, but I would have expected better performance from 55w more power from the SC-05. It's he lack of detail that also buggs me. I am a little suspicious about Pioneer, I bought the SC-05 just under $1K from auth dealer. They cut there plasma line whats next.

I have the older 53tx Pioneer Elite model. it's been given away and currently drives vandersteen 2c's and 5cc. Plenty of power, detail and punch. I don't think it's Pioneer's MCACC or DSP, just the crappy ICE amp is no good with our types of speakers. the vandersteens are also 4ohm 86dB.

I agree it does seem a waste to spend 1K on an AVR to spend another 1K
for an external amp. It's like you are throwing away the internal amp section.
Not very many other options out there. I was going to settle with the -03 Elite but the SC-05 seems to have more features in the long run. Too bad they decided to use these ice amps.

best wishes to you.

 

[sedonalar]

SC-05 Issues

Lordoftherings read my mind regarding returning the SC-05 to get better sound. I am running a 5.1 system at this time. My reasoning is if I wanted an HDMI switching receiver but most on the market were way under powered then I would get a cheaper receiver (I paid $1k US for the SC-05), like a H/K 3550HD, or a newer Yamaha unit, and use the saved money to buy the Emotiva XPA-5?, 200w/chnl@8ohm. I have never tried any of the newer Yamaha units, rxv3900 or rxv7 to see if they would have enough power? I never realized that these Mirage om-9's got below 4ohm's. That's low. / I have though about selling the Mirage set up and buy direct radiating speakers. I have never heard, but I have read the reviews on the Aperion 6T's towers, or Axiom M60's (8ohm) or M80's. If I wanted to stay with the Mirage Bipolar/Omnipolar sound I could go with the Martin Logan Purity's. I just heard the Purity's last week, and I know I could use the line level input. It's tough because the ML's have a tight sweet spot and placement issues. I haven't heard the other's or higher end direct radiating. Very few stores left that have mid priced speakers.

 

[sedonalar]

Photoeye, regarding the Pioneer units, about three years ago I demo'd an Elite 56tx, with my Mirage OM-9's. I thought it did an excellent job, it had power & clarity. I still recall the Italian Job being played, and the big motor boat pursuit scene was awesome, great detail. I am thinking that sticking with the Mirage speakers may not be worth it. I really like the sound, but it is complicated, maybe too complicated & costly.

 

[sedonalar]

SC-05 Update

The SC-05 is being returned due to the lack of power/current! The info I got from "Lordoftheings" was very detailed. The Onkyo 876 or 906 appears to be the best match to drive my low Ohm Mirage OM-9 speakers and center channel with out buying an external amp. My main intention was to find a good receiver to power these speakers. This should do the trick. When I reconnected my H/K AVR520 my speakers came back alive. This proved that the SC-05 didn't have enough power/current. The difference was night and day. And my H/K is rated at only 75W, maybe it's way under-rated? I still really want the HDMI switching receiver.
Does anyone know when the the Onkyo 876 is due for replacement?
I still enjoy and like the Mirage OM-9 speakers; but assuming I get the power to drive them with a new Onkyo, is the room size too big to fill the room with enough reference type of sound. I sit 11'-12' feet away from the speakers. The room is 14'X20' wiich opens to the kitchen for another 14'X20" room with 9' ceilings. I don't want to have ear damage, but I want to have a large soundstage with detailed sound.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Wow, interesting! Large room, LR is 12X20+ opens into kitchen for another 12X20. Viewing is about 11-12' away. I love the Mirage sound, it's depth, but they are a pain placement wise. I have thought about looking at other speakers, direct radiating types. I bought the SC05 for about 1K, US $. I have thought about adding an outlaw or Emotiva amp, but I would rather have a good solid receiver to power. I can go higher, thought of the Yamaha RXV7? Gotta jam until tonight, thanx.

Because of that opening, it makes your room actually much bigger, you understand?

Your Mirage are just fine, they are just more fussy to positioned, but I can help you to do that... Don't look at other speakers, look at another receiver that can drive 4-ohm loads, and that gives you some nice details and spaliality to match your OM-9.

You don't need another amp as an add up, you just need an Onkyo TX-SR876 for less than what you pay for your SC-05. But you already know that, unless you are too afraid of having your bacon and eggs on top of it for breakfast?

The Yammy RX-Z7 will run you much more than the 876, and it also runs hot, plus it does not deliver as much power into 4-ohm loads as the 876.

* Your OM-9 should have lots of room from the rear and side walls, that's the full secret of them. Give them a good 3 to 4 feet from any room bounderies, and you will thank me for the openess, the soundstage, the precision of the smallest details, the holographic dimension, the width, the depth, the height, the purity of the euphony, the extraction of the people from the band, the...

Bob

 

[Lordoftherings]

I still really want the HDMI switching receiver.
Does anyone know when the the Onkyo 876 is due for replacement?
I still enjoy and like the Mirage OM-9 speakers; but assuming I get the power to drive them with a new Onkyo, is the room size too big to fill the room with enough reference type of sound. I sit 11'-12' feet away from the speakers. The room is 14'X20' wiich opens to the kitchen for another 14'X20" room with 9' ceilings. I don't want to have ear damage, but I want to have a large soundstage with detailed sound.

The Onkyo TX-SR876 has 4 HDMI inputs and 2 outputs. It has the HQV Reon processor. Is that not enough for an HDMI swiching receiver?

Did you even read about it? Like I told you so, by giving you some links.

This 876 will chew your room like Godzilla chew a mouse.

This 876 will bring heaven directly into your living room. What else do you want with it? French fries and the moon?

Just get the dam freakin' thing! That will probably be the best and smartest move you'll ever made in your life. Don't take my word for it, take the Sound of the Onkyo TX-SR876 to match with your entire enchilada of Mirage speakers, in particular your OM-9 and your center channel.

Bob

 

[sedonalar]

SC-05 Issues

Ok, I read the links, reviews, they had very good info on the Onkyo 876. I don't know how I overlooked this receiver before? I got caught up in the looks of the Sc-05 I guess. I found a lead for this receiver at a local store in my area (Onkyo 876) so I should be able to pick it up this weekend and hook it up. That will save money in the long run, because now I can be satisfied with the Mirage's and have a complete system again.

Next on the agenda is a new flat panel TV. But, that will be a new thread.


Thx for everyones help. I will add more info once I get the Onkyo. I hope my experience has helped out others choosing a receiver. It's a shame Pioneer didn't stick to stronger, traditional amps!

 

[photoeye]

that's great you decided on the 876. I had an onkyo AVR once, had hum
issues that they could never resolve. I never went back to them.

I agree with you it's ideal to have an AVR with an internal amp that's
able to drive your speakers, without having to go to an external amp.
Unfortunately our speaker specs are not ideal.

I'm now reading that the XPA-5 sound no better than the AVR's
internal amp and it's best to go with the XPA-2. Issue being it's
only for 2 channels.

I should look into the 876, so their specs states it can drive a 4ohm load?
anyhow, too late to return my SC-05.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I agree with you it's ideal to have an AVR with an internal amp that'sable to drive your speakers, without having to go to an external amp.Unfortunately our speaker specs are not ideal.

I'm now reading that the XPA-5 sound no better than the AVR's
internal amp and it's best to go with the XPA-2. Issue being it's
only for 2 channels.

I should look into the 876, so their specs states it can drive a 4ohm load?
anyhow, too late to return my SC-05.

1. You're right, our speakers do dip quite low sometimes. And if you buy a receiver, why not get one that can get the work done, without the need for external amps.

2. The XPA-5 is ideal for a $500 range receiver or so.
With a $1,000 range receiver, go with the XPA-2 and the XPA-3.
For a $5,000 receiver, go with a pair of XPA-1.
For a receiver below $499 and that have preouts for all channel, you can get the UPA-7.
That's the nice thing about Emotiva, you get amps for all taste and all pre/pro or receivers.

3. The 876 will deliver 320 watts into 4-ohm loads with two channels driven, and at 0.3% THD.
The 876 wiil give you an honest 130 watts times 7 into 8-ohm loads, again at 0.3% THD.
-> http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html

* And the price is quite attractive too.
-> http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR876BLK/Onkyo/TX-SR876-7.1-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-BLACK/1.html
** The price just went up by $30, and then another $20. So, $50 more than what it was. A one point, it was $875.

Bob

 

[Lordoftherings]

Reviews of last year Onkyo TX-SR875:

1. http:www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/907onk875/

2. http://www.audyssey.com/media/downloads/02.08.WidescreenReview.OnkyoTXSR875.pdf

I just thought of adding these to help people getting more information for a better purchase decision.

Bob