Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH

[lovinthehd]

My speaker setup is as follows. I know I need to upgrade them as well.

2 X Polk Audio RTi12 floor standing speakers.
1 x Definitive Procenter 100 center speaker
2 x Mitsubishi Surround
2 x KLH Surround Back
1 x Mitsubishi MSUB10 Subwoofer

I did run the MCACC and the system sounds great. I notice the difference when I listen to music both Stereo, Extended Stereo, and Surround when playing Blu-Ray concerts (e.g. Jeff Beck Live in Tokyo as an example) and I pump up the volume. I manually adjusted the bass but it is not the same at the 94-TXH.

So essentially a lack of bass at high volume? Getting a real sub might help

 

[PENG]

My speaker setup is as follows. I know I need to upgrade them as well.

2 X Polk Audio RTi12 floor standing speakers.
1 x Definitive Procenter 100 center speaker
2 x Mitsubishi Surround
2 x KLH Surround Back
1 x Mitsubishi MSUB10 Subwoofer

I did run the MCACC and the system sounds great. I notice the difference when I listen to music both Stereo, Extended Stereo, and Surround when playing Blu-Ray concerts (e.g. Jeff Beck Live in Tokyo as an example) and I pump up the volume. I manually adjusted the bass but it is not the same at the 94-TXH.

Pioneer's earlier class D amp, the SC-07 apparently had issues with 4 ohm speakers according to AH:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/pioneer-sc-07/sc-07-measurements-and-analysis

The newer ones such as the LX701 shouldn't have such issues any more, one would think.. They claimed:

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-LX701

High-Power Simultaneous Multi-Channel Drive

With Class AB amplifiers, driving all channels at full power is only possible for a short time, at around 300 W to 400 W power output. The SC-LX701’s Class D3 Amplifier has the ability to simultaneously drive 9-channels at 760 W power output, while managing to deliver dynamic content more efficently.

So I can think of a couple reasons why the LX701 may fall short of what you expected:

1. This newer crops of Pioneer class D pioneer still doesn't play well with the big RTi 12 towers (likely 4 ohms).
2. You ran MCACC, and likely didn't do it exactly the same way you did with the 94TXH.
3. Some expectation bias involved.

I suspect 3) just might play a little part because you seemed pre-conceived with the notion that 125 vs 135 vs 140 W thing could be an issue, when in fact those slight differences that are also typically specified and measured under different conditions, are insignificant and practically irrelevant to the audible difference you appear to be hearing.

1) and 2) are likely the real reasons, especially if 3) isn't.

The RTi12 are specified as 8 ohm nominal, but in reality they most likely are closer to 4 ohms as seen by an amplifier, based on the fact that it has the following driver array:

2 X 5-1/4 inch mids
3 X 7 inch woofers

With that many mid range and fairly big bass drivers, it's pretty hard to get the overall impedance to be as high as 8 ohm nominal. I am sure it can be done, but likely too difficult, therefore costly for Polkaudio to bother doing. @TLSGuy or @Dennis Murphy may disagree, but I think there is a better chance that they would agree, that the impedance of the RTI12 are most likely lower (closer to 4 ohm) than the specified 8 ohm.

MCACC - If you want to compare sound quality between the two, you should use movies and music that you are very familiar with, make sure they are playing at the same spl (sound pressure level),and use pure direct mode.

If you use any other mode, the effects of MCACC will skew the results, that is simply a fact, that it will happen. Assuming your furniture in the room is exactly the same, you will still get significant difference results each time you run MCACC if the mic positions and the noise floor are exactly the same. So it could have just so happened that you MCACC run you made with the LX701 did not get the same (better I assume) results you got with the 94TXH.

Regardless, now that I know you have those towers, and it sounds like you do like high spl, I highly recommend you get a 200 WPC or higher (the higher the better) power amp. The remaining puzzle is, if you are not happy with the LX701, it is hard to explain why you seem fine with the 140 W 94TXH, that is still just a receiver, albeit a decently powerful one.

 

[VOguyinLA]

Pioneer's earlier class D amp, the SC-07 apparently had issues with 4 ohm speakers according to AH:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/pioneer-sc-07/sc-07-measurements-and-analysis

The newer ones such as the LX701 shouldn't have such issues any more, one would think.. They claimed:

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-LX701



So I can think of a couple reasons why the LX701 may fall short of what you expected:

1. This newer crops of Pioneer class D pioneer still doesn't play well with the big RTi 12 towers (likely 4 ohms).
2. You ran MCACC, and likely didn't do it exactly the same way you did with the 94TXH.
3. Some expectation bias involved.

I suspect 3) just might play a little part because you seemed pre-conceived with the notion the 125 vs 135 vs 140 W could be an issue, when in fact those slight differences that are also typically specified and measured under different conditions, are insignificant and practically irrelevant to the audible difference you appear to be hearing.

1) and 2) are likely the real reasons, especially if 3) isn't.

The RTi12 are specified as 8 ohm nominal, but in reality they most likely are closer to 4 ohms as seen by an amplifier, based on the fact that it has the following driver array:

2 X 5-1/4 inch mids
3 X 7 inch woofers

With that many mid range and fairly big bass drivers, it's pretty hard to get the overall impedance to be as high as 8 ohm nominal. I am sure it can be done, but likely too difficult, therefore costly for Polkaudio to bother doing. @TLSGuy or @Dennis Murphy may disagree, but I think there is a better chance that they would agree, that the impedance of the RTI12 are most likely lower (closer to 4 ohm) than the specified 8 ohm.

MCACC - If you want to compare sound quality between the two, you should use movies and music that you are very familiar with, make sure they are playing at the same spl (sound pressure level),and use pure direct mode.

If you use any other mode, the effects of MCACC will skew the results, that is simply a fact, that it will happen. Assuming your furniture in the room is exactly the same, you will still get significant difference results each time you run MCACC if the mic positions and the noise floor are exactly the same. So it could have just so happened that you MCACC run you made with the LX701 did not get the same (better I assume) results you got with the 94TXH.

Regardless, now that I know you have those towers, and it sounds like you do like high spl, I highly recommend you get a 200 WPC or higher (the higher the better) power amp. The remaining puzzle is, if you are not happy with the LX701, it is hard to explain why you seem fine with the 140 W 94TXH, that is still just a receiver, albeit a decently powerful one.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I am very happy with the LX701. It is very very close to perfect in my opinion. I think the additional power of 200 WPC will be the sweet spot.
Also, I just swapped out my old 18 year old Mitsubishi sub-woofer with a KRK 10S sub-woofer from my recording studio that I don't use. I have a red/white RCA pair coming out of the LX701 Subwoofer port via a coupler, but MCACC doesn't detect it nor does it produce any sound. If I plug it into the Pre-out port right above the subwoofer port it produces sound but seems like it is overloading, but that is the only config that seems to be recognized. Thoughts? Thanks!

It

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I am very happy with the LX701. It is very very close to perfect in my opinion. I think the additional power of 200 WPC will be the sweet spot.
Also, I just swapped out my old 18 year old Mitsubishi sub-woofer with a KRK 10S sub-woofer from my recording studio that I don't use. I have a red/white RCA pair coming out of the LX701 Subwoofer port via a coupler, but MCACC doesn't detect it nor does it produce any sound. If I plug it into the Pre-out port right above the subwoofer port it produces sound but seems like it is overloading, but that is the only config that seems to be recognized. Thoughts? Thanks!

It

Thank you for the feedback. I guess it is too late to compare them in pure direct as it it s lot of work to hook up the 94 TXH again. Based on what you are saying now, it does look it is mainly MCACC related, that is, the bass response is not as good the way it is, but not the fault of the LX701.

Still, unless you plan on upgrading the speakers, I am quite sure if you enjoy listening loud, the RTi12 will do better with an external power amp, a 200 W amp would be a bare minimum, because you need double the power to gain 3 dB more of sound level. People only perceived twice as loud for a spl increase of 6 to 10 dB.

 

[VOguyinLA]

Thank you for the feedback. I guess it is too late to compare them in pure direct as it it s lot of work to hook up the 94 TXH again. Based on what you are saying now, it does look it is mainly MCACC related, that is, the bass response is not as good the way it is, but not the fault of the LX701.

Still, unless you plan on upgrading the speakers, I am quite sure if you enjoy listening loud, the RTi12 will do better with an external power amp, a 200 W amp would be a bare minimum, because you need double the power to gain 3 dB more of sound level. People only perceived twice as loud for a spl increase of 6 to 10 dB.

Thanks so much and I agree. Do you have an amp you would recommend? Crown looks like a good one.

 

[PENG]

Thanks so much and I agree. Do you have an amp you would recommend? Crown looks like a good one.

I have no experience with the $399 XLS 1502 that ADTG and HD have been recommending. I have already suggested the Monolith 5X200 that I believe is the most powerful Monolith based on transformer size. even though they are all rated 200 watts per channel. Their pricing policy encourages people to get more channels.

2X200 - $999, 3X200 - $1099, 5X200 - $1,299, 7X200 - $1,599
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/monoprice-monolith-7-amplifier-review

 

[VOguyinLA]

I have no experience with the $399 XLS 1502 that ADTG and HD have been recommending. I have already suggested the Monolith 5X200 that I believe is the most powerful Monolith based on transformer size. even though they are all rated 200 watts per channel. Their pricing policy encourages people to get more channels.

2X200 - $999, 3X200 - $1099, 5X200 - $1,299, 7X200 - $1,599
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/monoprice-monolith-7-amplifier-review

Looks great! - Are there any considerations around amplification of some but not all speakers in a 7.2 configuration?

 

[lovinthehd]

The Crowns are nice for the price if you don't mind the aesthetics....

 

[lovinthehd]

Looks great! - Are there any considerations around amplification of some but not all speakers in a 7.2 configuration?

Not really, but you would re-run your calibration routine to incorporate any external amps along with the internal ones....

 

[Auditor55]

At this point we don't know your listening habit, that is, how loud, same kind of level you hear in movie theaters, or much quieter? It also depends on how far you sit, what kind of speakers you have etc. You can use an online calculator such as the one linked below to get a good idea of you power need.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

The AVR-X4400H that you asked about, it is listed for $1,599 but some people were able to get it for $799 or less recently, as the X4500H will be out in 2-3 months.

Based on S&V bench measurements, your Pioneer is about 1.2 dB more powerful than the Denon, that is truly negligible. The LX701 uses class D amplifiers, but it should still be comparable to you 94TXH for real world use, though I am more confident with the class AB Denon.

Another option is, keep the 94TXH, depending on your 4K needs, that is to buy 4K media players that offer two HDMI outputs as well the apps you need.

The 94TXH is a powerful one, it currently rank 17 out of 38 on my AVR power output chart, right below the Elite SC-89, based on 2Ch into 8 ohms, but its 2Ch into 4 ohm output is higher than the SC-89.

You should get the 801. I had the 94THX, sold it and picked up a s SC-63.

 

[VOguyinLA]

Over the last week the SCLX701 has been dropping audio regardless of the active input. I have to power cycle the receiver to get it back and the picture intermittently turns orange. I have only had the unit for just over a week so I will be returning it with the understanding that this is not a reflection on the model but rather a defective unit.

I am a neophyte when it comes to this as apparent by my posts. The 94-TXH was good powerful unit for my 7.1 surround setup. It was almost as good as the sound that I got from my 5.1 setup in same room in 1999 when I had a Mitsubishi receiver although I can't remember the model number.

I can exchange the unit and get an additional amplifier to supplement. However my first choice would be to only have one device. I would like the best unit I can buy that will kill it with my existing 7.2 setup and that could run my two outdoor stereo speakers. I have been looking at the Denon AVR-X8500H, although it is very unlikely that I would ever need that many channels.

I would welcome suggestions for the best unit I can get that would fulfill those requirements. If I really need to go the separate route I will although I will have to work on my other half as I understand Emotiva's and Outllaws are heavy and hot

Many thanks to Audioholics for such a great community!