Physical central channel vs phantom center - Odd behaviour

[TLS Guy]

I want to use Dolby Surround upmixer for music. I am not hide hard 2ch guy))

Well if you play multi-mix pop music with an upmixer you are going to have the problems you have. As I said the problem starts in the recoding studio. The way the music is produced is multi-miked with acoustic isolation and usually mixed by the unwashed. The bottom line is that does not give the upmixer the type of phasing and spatial information it requires to work.

On the other hand if you play music minimally miked and recorded in a large hall like the Royal Albert Hall, the Philharmonie Berlin, Severance Hall Detroit, or a cathedral space for instance, the upmixer can now work. So you will continue to have the same issue. So you have to listen to the former type of music I mentioned in two channel. My rig does the same thing with that multi miked isolation cacophony. So you will continue to get the same results.

From fine recordings from venues like I mentioned, the DD SRR up mixer works superbly. In fact I amazed at how faithfully it can reproduce the acoustics of the venue with 360 localization with uncanny fidelity. The audience applause even comes from all around. I'm amazed at how well it works. When I look at these two genres of music on the Spectroscope on my DAW you can see why. There is nothing you can do to change this on your end, except change your music genre.

 

[Trebdp83]

Dolby Center Spread isn’t really necessary with orchestral music and I do agree with @TLS Guy on that point. I also agree that pop music two channel recordings with vocals are a mixed bag.

When playing two channel music with vocals while Dolby Surround and Center Spread are applied, the vocals should be spread across the front stage. If not, something is wrong. The vocals should not be output from just the center channel speaker. What is the source of the two channel signal?

The RX-A1070 predates Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization and any virtual presence speakers and virtual surround back speakers are Yamaha’s via their proprietary DSP modes. They don’t apply to Dolby Surround in this case.

 

[Andrein]

I mostly use Tidal these days and some of my old CDs and Audio DVDs. Spent half of today listening to different stuff - rock, pop, piano, vocals. With Center Stead not working in most cases with center Speaker it sounded not great for 2 ch and actually very good for native 5.1 recordings.

Then I discovered something was wrong with the receiver as some of the settings did not have any effect on sound. I did factory reset, new calibration. Still no ypao, just levels and delays. Now avr works fine. Center spread works but I put center image param to its max value 1 (it can be between 0.1 and 1). Now in some cases for 2ch upmixing I like center even more than without it. In about 30-40% I hardly can tell the difference and about the half of recordings with actual center sound worse - less mid, less bass, too narrow sound stage.

As you said it is difficult to predict what you get. Try and error. But at least there is a choice. And at least for movies the center was worth to buy. The dialogues are much clearer now.

What center image value do you use for center spread?

 

[Trebdp83]

The Center Image feature applies to DTS Neo:6 while Center Spread applies to Dolby Surround. To make sure you are using Dolby, press the SUR. DECODE button on the remote controller until Dsur appears on the front panel. Then, go into the settings for decoders and turn Center Spread ON.

 

[Andrein]

The Center Image feature applies to DTS Neo:6 while Center Spread applies to Dolby Surround. To make sure you are using Dolby, press the SUR. DECODE button on the remote controller until Dsur appears on the front panel. Then, go into the settings for decoders and turn Center Spread ON.

I use Yamaha web setup for my receiver. And Center Image is under Dolby Surround as you can see on the picture

 

[isolar8001]

I mostly use Tidal these days and some of my old CDs and Audio DVDs. Spent half of today listening to different stuff - rock, pop, piano, vocals. With Center Stead not working in most cases with center Speaker it sounded not great for 2 ch and actually very good for native 5.1 recordings.

Then I discovered something was wrong with the receiver as some of the settings did not have any effect on sound. I did factory reset, new calibration. Still no ypao, just levels and delays. Now avr works fine. Center spread works but I put center image param to its max value 1 (it can be between 0.1 and 1). Now in some cases for 2ch upmixing I like center even more than without it. In about 30-40% I hardly can tell the difference and about the half of recordings with actual center sound worse - less mid, less bass, too narrow sound stage.

As you said it is difficult to predict what you get. Try and error. But at least there is a choice. And at least for movies the center was worth to buy. The dialogues are much clearer now.

What center image value do you use for center spread?

I use a Pioneer, not a Yamaha...so there is no setting for center spread, but the dialog enhancement affects that. Yamaha of course has a gazillion more sound modes/DSP.
Resetting these modern AVR's is getting to be the norm...they just get out of whack and need it every so often.

If Yamaha has a web interface, keep a copy of your settings so you don't have to redo everything after a reset.
(I see now you are using it...good)

 

[Trebdp83]

I use Yamaha web setup for my receiver. And Center Image is under Dolby Surround as you can see on the picture

Your Decoder type is set at Auto. Click on the arrow to bring up the different decoders and select Dolby Surround to use with Center Spread or select Neo:6 Music to use with Center Image when inputting two channel signals.

 

[Trebdp83]

I use a Pioneer, not a Yamaha...so there is no setting for center spread, but the dialog enhancement affects that. Yamaha of course has a gazillion more sound modes/DSP.
Resetting these modern AVR's is getting to be the norm...they just get out of whack and need it every so often.

If Yamaha has a web interface, keep a copy of your settings so you don't have to redo everything after a reset.
(I see now you are using it...good)

What is the model of the Pioneer? Center Spread is a Dolby feature and is not a proprietary DSP feature of any one particular brand. Different AVR manufacturers will have their own similar feature with different nomenclature.

 

[Andrein]

Your Decoder type is set at Auto. Click on the arrow to bring up the different decoders and select Dolby Surround to use with Center Spread or select Neo:6 Music to use with Center Image when inputting two channel signals.

Yamaha says by default it is DS unless it is DTS content. Changing to explicit DS does not change anything for my 2ch case

 

[Trebdp83]

That is usually the case for most receivers new and older concerning automatic decoder selection. Yamaha adds the Auto mode designation. I don’t care for Auto and like to specifically select Dolby Surround in my Yamaha when using it to up mix two channel music signals with Center Spread ON.

Just know that Center Spread works only with the Dolby Surround decoder and Center Image only with the DTS Neo:6 Music decoder. Center Image works in reverse with the higher number making the center image more center oriented and the smaller numbers less so.

Cross upmixing of signals and the use of Dolby Center Spread and DTS Neo:6 Center Image have changed with newer receiver models and will continue to do so. The specifics of how and when they work will vary from receiver to receiver.

 

[Andrein]

That is usually the case for most receivers new and older concerning automatic decoder selection. Yamaha adds the Auto mode designation. I don’t care for Auto and like to specifically select Dolby Surround in my Yamaha when using it to up mix two channel music signals with Center Spread ON.

Just know that Center Spread works only with the Dolby Surround decoder and Center Image only with the DTS Neo:6 Music decoder. Center Image works in reverse with the higher number making the center image more center oriented and the smaller numbers less so.

Cross upmixing of signals and the use of Dolby Center Spread and DTS Neo:6 Center Image have changed with newer receiver models and will continue to do so. The specifics of how and when they work will vary from receiver to receiver.

Yeah. I might change to explicitly DS just in case.

Thank you guys for the help and tips. It took some time over weekend but at least I know I am going to keep the central speaker for movies and discrete 5.1 music and for some 2ch upmixing if I am not too lazy to check every time what sounds better - with or without it. Also I fixed my receiver which probably got corrupted somehow by some of the latest firmware updates. Factory reset fixed Central spread and crossover features for me. And of course it is now much easier to recognize speech in movies!

 

[Kingnoob]

I just shut my center off I didn’t think there were all these steps for phantom

Yeah. I might change to explicitly DS just in case.

Thank you guys for the help and tips. It took some time over weekend but at least I know I am going to keep the central speaker for movies and discrete 5.1 music and for some 2ch upmixing if I am not too lazy to check every time what sounds better - with or without it. Also I fixed my receiver which probably got corrupted somehow by some of the latest firmware updates. Factory reset fixed Central spread and crossover features for me. And of course it is now much easier to recognize speech in movies!

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