Philharmonic Audio Phil 3 - Acoustic Zen Crescendo II comparison

[jdavis37]

I own a very wonderfully made pair of Phil3 speakers with cabinets made by Jim Salk. I don't have anything negative to say about the Phil3s but am curious to know how they compare to the Acoustic Zen Crescendo II's. I have an opportunity to purchase the latter but no way to listen first or do an in home comparison with what I have. Anyone who has heard both I would appreciate feedback.

One move I believe I am going to have to make is getting away from the pure silver interconnects I have had and thought I loved for years. At one time I adored the interconnects but with my SST amp and the Phil3's I am starting to pick up on some harshness in the mids. Instruments are very crisp, detailed and nice but vocals have a trace of harshness that says time to replace the silver. I do not think it is speaker related as it did not appear until I changed the amp and it is simply resolving more than did the previous Hegel I owned. Thx

 

[speakerman39]

@JDAVIS I have not heard either speaker but, I am sure that Dennis would give you an honest assessment. Of course, if someone here has heard/compared both would also be very insightful. In all honesty, I highly doubt that the Acoustic Zen Cresendo's would be any better. I highly recommend that you look further up the Jim Salk food chain so to speak if you want better inmho. Dennis could offer plenty of insights there as well. As such, you might want to send him an email. Good luck in your comparison. Wish I could be of more help.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Swerd]

I agree with Phil. I have heard the Phil 3s, more than once. In my opinion, they (along with the Salk SoundScape 8, 10 & 12) are my absolute favorite speakers. All were designed by Dennis Murphy. If jdavis37 has a pair of Phil3s, I can't imagine what might be better.

I haven't heard the Crescendo II speakers. Do they really cost $18,000 per pair? In the past, I have heard another AZ floor-standing speaker, although I can't remember the model name. It was a 2-way 8" (?) coaxial speaker. I was not impressed by them. Their internet hype far out-shone what I heard in person – at an audio show in a hotel. As a result, I have severe doubts about that company, it's acoustic design expertise, and it's online promises & hype. I have no such doubt about Philharmonic Audio.

I find it noteworthy that many used Acoustic Zen speakers are for sale, but very few, if any, Phil3s are.

jdavis37 has listened to his Phi3s them for some time. I don't know how long that is, but in his own words, he has nothing negative to say about them. I suggest that many other speakers, regardless of price, will not be as satisfactory sounding to him.

 

[speakerman39]

Basically, b/c a speaker cost more does NOT mean it will always sound better. The point of diminishing returns settles in quite rapidly when it comes to loudspeakers. One thing about Dennis Murphy is that he is a straight-shooter so to speak. He will be very honest with the OP. Not to mention, Dennis knows the Jim Salk offerings as well as anyone. Just saying............


Cheers,

Phil

 

[jdavis37]

I'll email Dennis. When he built my Phil3's I found someone who was very nice and as said above much a straight shooter. Jim Salk built my cabinets and did an incredible job (he was also incredulously patient as I looked through a multitude of veneer options). I played with the stuffing some last night and discovered I did not have the two speakers balanced well(most likely was in process of adjusting and got a wife signal to duty and then via my age and ADD forgot to finish). I am picking up on some edginess to some of the vocals that I wasn't aware of before but I do believe that is due to the silver interconnects I am using. Am learning as well with regard to cables (not to start that debate) that the complete system is what one is after at the end of the day. I'm looking at replacements now.

As I said before I have not heard the Crescendos but do know their reputation is well regarded. The place I purchased my SST amp/preamp from seems to feel they will mate well with my current gear. He could not offer an opinion of Crescendo versus Phil3 because he had never heard mine. I know this stuff is very subjective and it is difficult to remain unbiased (myself included). As I have gotten older (Not OLD mind you) I have also theorized a bit about hearing. People taste things differently and people smell things differently (I find most seafood stinky and yet my wife doesn't for example). I now also believe people hear sounds differently. At the end of the day it will come down to my ears. That said, if anyone has really heard both, etc. such comments may be helpful. I wasn't seeking an upgrade/change until I found a very clean pair of Crescendos at a decent price point. Whether *any* speaker is truly worth $22,000 or $16,000 etc. is another question in itself as snake oil does begin to creep in, and at times you wonder just how much can it cost to build something. i know Dennis is very fair in his pricing to the point he is probably making about 2 cents per hour for his time. If Phil3's sold retail they would be closer to 8k than 4K especially with the Salk finish. John

 

[Swerd]

I'll email Dennis. When he built my Phil3's I found someone who was very nice and as said above much a straight shooter. Jim Salk built my cabinets and did an incredible job (he was also incredulously patient as I looked through a multitude of veneer options).

Agreed. Dennis is always a straight shooter. In fact, as a speaker maker, he always refuses to comment about his competitors products. Jim Salk is marvelous at customer service. And you already know the results of his cabinet work and finishing skills.

Whether *any* speaker is truly worth $22,000 or $16,000 etc. is another question in itself as snake oil does begin to creep in, and at times you wonder just how much can it cost to build something.

For what its worth, there are two "high priced" speakers I've heard at audio shows where I was able to compare to the Phil3s. One was the Joseph Audio Pearl. I liked it and thought it and the Phil3 were in the same league in sound quality – but not in price. If I recall the Pearl was about $23,000.

The other speaker was the Wilson Audio Sophia. It sounded dreadful. It was so shrill & harsh, it quite literally drove people (including myself) out of the room. It's price was close to the Joseph Audio Pearl. Across the hall from the Wilson room was the room shared by Dennis and Jim Salk, where I could hear both the Phil3 and the Salk SS8. The listeners seemed to stay there much longer.

 

[jdavis37]

I live reasonably close to Charlotte NC which 25 years ago had a few stereo stores that carried higher end equipment, which made it very convenient to listen, up to and including a trip home with the stuff. Those days faded years ago and there is nothing remotely close around here. We have a few dealers who sell things from their homes but inventory is very low. The only nearby AZ dealer in fact did not carry much of the line (no speakers).

I did have some time today to ferret things out. I found one article on line discussing the caps used in the Crescendo speakers and the complexity of the crossovers. I don't have a strong opinion about particular caps but if a speaker is going to retail for $16,000 or $22,000, etc. I would expect to find higher grade components. It did not appear the components used were of particular higher end as some users were doing complete rebuilds. Could be snake oil and tomayto tomahto as well.

But I am for the moment more focused on other peripherals. There is a chance I may be hearing some things from the DAC I am using or even the interconnects (pure silver). I switched to my SST DAC tonight and did find a difference that while less detailed was also more pleasing, less harsh in the midrange vocals. Will give it a go for a spell and see if the edge I am hearing goes away. Course it may be the esoteric DAC is able to reveal issues elsewhere in the system (ie cables). Without starting that debate, cables (the ones I would buy) are cheaper than new speakers. Most likely if I bought the AZ Crescendos I would discover the same issue I have discovered now. Most likely what I am hearing is not a speaker issue!

 

[shadyJ]

I have heard the Crescendo speakers on a couple occasions, it was at Audio shows so it wasn't the best listening conditions, but I still thought they sounded good. I have not heard the Phils, but someday I would like to. The Crescendos are much more expensive, but I would think they would have a much wider dynamic range and power handling. The Acoustic Zen website is a disaster, and they are also big into the snake oil end of audio.

I would say if you have the opportunity to purchase the Crescendos cheap, go ahead and do it, and then run a comparison against your Phils. If you don't want to keep em, just resell them.

 

[jdavis37]

I have heard the Crescendo speakers on a couple occasions, it was at Audio shows so it wasn't the best listening conditions, but I still thought they sounded good. I have not heard the Phils, but someday I would like to. The Crescendos are much more expensive, but I would think they would have a much wider dynamic range and power handling. The Acoustic Zen website is a disaster, and they are also big into the snake oil end of audio.

I would say if you have the opportunity to purchase the Crescendos cheap, go ahead and do it, and then run a comparison against your Phils. If you don't want to keep em, just resell them.

Thanks Shady,

Unfortunately if I bought the Crescendos and then decided to sell them most likely the divorce cost would far exceed the speaker cost! I must be getting old because the thought of hauling 125 pound speakers upstairs and then perhaps having to carry them back down ship via pallet, etc. just sounds ugh! But, aside from that your idea has merit.

There are so many variables in this stuff though.. rooms itself, etc. etc. Last night I was very tempted to give the AZs a go. But now I am sensing issues that will be present no matter what I do, and at that point I'll run out of $$. The AZs are priced well but they are not cheap!

The AZs should play louder, or perhaps I should say they will require less power to play at the levels I listen to (90 dB at 6 ohms nominal impedance versus 85 dB at 4 ohms). I'm not seeing much negative being posted about them but that is the same for the Phil3's. I have Damien Rice's Blowers Daughter playing now and the bass on that track is very deep and full. The Phils get down there without a struggle. As with many things I don't think I am comparing anything bad!

Agree the AZ websites is poor at best. And when I see power cords for $1800 I smell a lot of oil but that said if a person has the money and can hear a difference then it isn't oil for them. On my budget though I'm not going to spend $1200 for a 1 meter interconnect pair. If I were filthy rich perhaps that would be different!

 

[speakerman39]

And when I see power cords for $1800 I smell a lot of oil but that said if a person has the money and can hear a difference then it isn't oil for them. On my budget though I'm not going to spend $1200 for a 1 meter interconnect pair. If I were filthy rich perhaps that would be different!

I would NEVER EVER spend that much on any interconnects/cables, speaker wire, and etc. no matter how much money I had period. There is nothing wrong with buying good wire with solid connections and being well shielded, and etc. But, I would put my money where it really counts. That being on my speakers first and foremost, then perhaps some room treatments and adding EQ/measurement capabilities. But, hey that is just me.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

The Phils look very good for what they are. If their dynamic range is sufficient, and their low-frequency extension is sufficient for you, I think the only way to tangibly improve on them would be to see if there are any speakers with a dispersion pattern that you might prefer more. The Phils look to have a wide-dispersion. That means there will be more reflections in their sound. Some people prefer that, and other people like a narrow dispersion sound where acoustic reflections will not be as much apart of the end sound. Personally, I like both and could easily live with either. Some people like the more spacious and enveloping sound of wide dispersion speakers, and others like the more precise soundstage of narrow dispersion speakers. If you wanted to explore a difference sound signature, look at narrow dispersion speakers. I don't think that the Crescendos would be different enough from the Phils to justify the trouble and cost.

 

[jdavis37]

I would NEVER EVER spend that much on any interconnects/cables, speaker wire, and etc. no matter how much money I had period. There is nothing wrong with buying good wire with solid connections and being well shielded, and etc. But, I would put my money where it really counts. That being on my speakers first and foremost, then perhaps some room treatments and adding EQ/measurement capabilities. But, hey that is just me.


Cheers,

Phil

That was exactly why I wanted to tap dance and be careful with bringing up talk of cables I do believe they can alter things to a degree. A couple years ago I purchased some nicely made copper speaker cables using 12 gauge wiring with good terminations from a small independent company. They weren't cheap but that said they certainly were affordably not cheap (couple hundred or so for an 8 foot pair). As soon as I connected them even when standing off to the side I thought what? Even my wife who cannot hear anything stereo related knew something was odd. So I think it does happen but I also think there is a huge amount of snake oil mixed in, especially when I see cables going for a fortune per linear foot! As you said eloquently, tis just me and I certainly do not want to say anyone is wrong for hearing what they hear and spending what they spend to hear it.

Years ago it was nice to be able to bring something home for a weekend and try it out to see how it adapted in my own environment. Every room is different and things sometimes work better in one room than another so to speak. We plan to build another house for post retirement so perhaps I'll work harder on the music room design to help reduce room effects. Probably would pay off somewhat. I'm sure my current room is adding at least some complexity to this.

Changing to a different DAC last night both helped and hurt. The really clear detail subsided a tad but so too did the harsh edges I was hearing on one particular vocal. I think I have an inexpensive pair (but decently made)of copper interconnects I can try and see what happens. Maybe I'll prove to myself the cables change nothing Never know til you do it!

 

[jdavis37]

The Phils look very good for what they are. If their dynamic range is sufficient, and their low-frequency extension is sufficient for you, I think the only way to tangibly improve on them would be to see if there are any speakers with a dispersion pattern that you might prefer more. The Phils look to have a wide-dispersion. That means there will be more reflections in their sound. Some people prefer that, and other people like a narrow dispersion sound where acoustic reflections will not be as much apart of the end sound. Personally, I like both and could easily live with either. Some people like the more spacious and enveloping sound of wide dispersion speakers, and others like the more precise soundstage of narrow dispersion speakers. If you wanted to explore a difference sound signature, look at narrow dispersion speakers. I don't think that the Crescendos would be different enough from the Phils to justify the trouble and cost.

Thx Shady. Unfortunately there is no true way to know without listening. They may behave more similarly than different. When I bought the Phil3's it was on a leap of faith. I had never heard them before, and they were pricey enough that it was a risk of sorts. The reviews were consistently good and Dennis is a really good person. Communicating with the person building the speaker made it easier to take the risk. He truly cannot be making much money on each pair he sells given the driver prices, cabinets, etc.. So the markup is very little compared to retail priced speakers.

I would enjoy hearing the Crescendos though just from curiosity. I do often wonder what makes any speaker sell for $18,000 and higher. It is no longer driver cost related. Salk's cabinet finish is extremely nice so there isn't a ton of cabinet finish difference to drive costs. At some point it just comes down to business model and what people are wiling to pay for a given product (i.e., it would have to sound good obviously). I'm not likely to buy an expensive pair of speakers to see if I like them though. Too much money and too much hassle. If anyone had heard both and really thought one stood out significantly from the other, those subjective comments could have been factored in.

On narrow versus wide, presently if I move 1 foot to left or right I am hearing a shift in the balance of the soundstage. It is enough of a shift that I would not want any more narrow. I've played some with the stuffing to see if I can alter that but my room obviously is overcompensating somewhat. I typically do not prefer a narrow stream of sound but do like good precision in stage presence. Most of what I now listen to is live acoustic, and I like gettign a sense of where things were on the stage inasmuch as I can!

 

[Irvrobinson]

One move I believe I am going to have to make is getting away from the pure silver interconnects I have had and thought I loved for years. At one time I adored the interconnects but with my SST amp and the Phil3's I am starting to pick up on some harshness in the mids. Instruments are very crisp, detailed and nice but vocals have a trace of harshness that says time to replace the silver. I do not think it is speaker related as it did not appear until I changed the amp and it is simply resolving more than did the previous Hegel I owned. Thx

Interconnects as in line-level cables between the pre-amp and the amplifier? And somehow you're thinking that because they're "pure silver" that they're the root cause of "harshness in the midrange"? And then you changed the amp and "it's more resolving"? Were these both solid state amps?

And you're also wondering about how differences in the brand of capacitors in the crossover affect sound quality. And changing DACs caused detail to subside, but now you heard additional harshness. Were these both modern DACs with modern silicon in them (as in no more than 10 years old)? Was that with or without the poorly performing silver interconnects in the signal path?

And then after all of that you're wondering about diminishing returns with expensive speakers.

And my favorite part of this whole thread, despite all of your opinions about interconnects, DACs, and amplifiers, you order a pair of Phil3s without hearing them. And then you're wondering if anyone has opinions about the Acoustic Zen things, which you haven't heard either, because you have a chance to buy them?

I know I'm in one of my intolerant moods right now, because the pollen count is through the roof around here and my allergies kept me up half the night, but you have all of the trappings of a troll. Personally, I think that if you weren't discussing Philharmonic speakers and Dennis Murphy, one of the most popular posters on this site who builds speakers some members have love affairs with, you would get more responses expressing the level of incredulity I have.

 

[jdavis37]

Interconnects as in line-level cables between the pre-amp and the amplifier? And somehow you're thinking that because they're "pure silver" that they're the root cause of "harshness in the midrange"? And then you changed the amp and "it's more resolving"? Were these both solid state amps?

And you're also wondering about how differences in the brand of capacitors in the crossover affect sound quality. And changing DACs caused detail to subside, but now you heard additional harshness. Were these both modern DACs with modern silicon in them (as in no more than 10 years old)? Was that with or without the poorly performing silver interconnects in the signal path?

And then after all of that you're wondering about diminishing returns with expensive speakers.

And my favorite part of this whole thread, despite all of your opinions about interconnects, DACs, and amplifiers, you order a pair of Phil3s without hearing them. And then you're wondering if anyone has opinions about the Acoustic Zen things, which you haven't heard either, because you have a chance to buy them?

I know I'm in one of my intolerant moods right now, because the pollen count is through the roof around here and my allergies kept me up half the night, but you have all of the trappings of a troll. Personally, I think that if you weren't discussing Philharmonic speakers and Dennis Murphy, one of the most popular posters on this site who builds speakers some members have love affairs with, you would get more responses expressing the level of incredulity I have.

Ive learned through the years to not read too much into forum replies when someone is irritated by the pollen count. Pollen can certainly affect a person adversely. Everyone thus far answered nicely with civility and their comments have been helpful. Is all i can ask for. Dennis is a really good person and makes great products that are priced below their value.

Calling me a troll is not appreciated nor warranted. Nothing compelled your response.

This thread started with asking if anyone had experience listening to both speakers. Simple enough. There are other variables that may be in play abd i will continue to explore tgem. At same time i will avoid all debates regarding cables and dacs. I respect fully each person's beliefs on those things and know there are probably multiple truths as we each hear things differently. If this makes me a troll then i guess i am one.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I respect fully each person's beliefs on those things and know there are probably multiple truths as we each hear things differently.

That's nice. I gotta ask, didn't you read a little first about why this site exists and the philosophies of both the owner (which he puts at the top of every forum page) and the people likely to post here? It is true that my avatar was not chosen randomly, but you probably chose one of the most unlikely places on the US internet to find people with a lot of tolerance for multiple beliefs about the audibility of different conductors and allowing the existence of multiple versions of "the truth", whatever that is. So I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you did read a little first, and you knew the potential responses to your posts, hence wondering about whether you were a troll or not.

 

[shadyJ]

On narrow versus wide, presently if I move 1 foot to left or right I am hearing a shift in the balance of the soundstage. It is enough of a shift that I would not want any more narrow. I've played some with the stuffing to see if I can alter that but my room obviously is overcompensating somewhat. I typically do not prefer a narrow stream of sound but do like good precision in stage presence. Most of what I now listen to is live acoustic, and I like gettign a sense of where things were on the stage inasmuch as I can!

The shift in soundstage will occur with any speaker when you are significantly closer to one than the other. The only way to counteract that which I know of is time-intensity trading, and that can only be done with narrow dispersion speakers when they are toed-in at a inner angle. Otherwise you have to be in the sweet spot for almost any other sound system.

 

[jdavis37]

I'm going to ask this return to my original question regarding the AZ Crescendo 2. I don't want the thread to run down a rabbit hole nor do I want name calling etc. I asked what I thought was a simple wuestion and really wanted to avoid topics of controversy. If there us no possibility of either dac or cable causing what I'm hearing then i have my answer. I do appreciate all the responses thus far offering suggestions and sharing of information. When you cannot listen for yourself you have to rely somewhat on what others can share. Or fly and audition for myself.

That's nice. I gotta ask, didn't you read a little first about why this site exists and the philosophies of both the owner (which he puts at the top of every forum page) and the people likely to post here? It is true that my avatar was not chosen randomly, but you probably chose one of the most unlikely places on the US internet to find people with a lot of tolerance for multiple beliefs about the audibility of different conductors and allowing the existence of multiple versions of "the truth", whatever that is. So I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you did read a little first, and you knew the potential responses to your posts, hence wondering about whether you were a troll or not.

 

[jdavis37]

The shift in soundstage will occur with any speaker when you are significantly closer to one than the other. The only way to counteract that which I know of is time-intensity trading, and that can only be done with narrow dispersion speakers when they are toed-in at a inner angle. Otherwise you have to be in the sweet spot for almost any other sound system.

Thx Shady. I may play around a little with the speaker positioning. When we build or next house I'll work some on the "man cave" aka music room to perhaps enhance the listening aspects of the room. There probably is room to work on that some now. I do appreciate the feedback.

 

[charmerci]

jdavis - PM sent.