phase accurate speakers?

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Dr. Parthipan

Junior Audioholic
Is there such thing as phase accurate speakers? Which ones can I choose from? I have heard the egg shaped speakers from eclipse which sounded pretty good. The imaging in particular was very precise. They are one of few companies producing such speakers.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I had in interesting discussion with a physicist on another board (he's here too) discussing frequency-dependent phase-delay in relationship to wires (Characteristic impedance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) including a suggestion on how to create an exaggerated version with a mono source.

This would suggest that true phase-coherency is an unachievable goal as your phase problems would start at the microphone cable and just get worse as time goes on.

Now, the amount of phase delay would seem controllable (something you could seek to limit if you desired it). It was suggested that, if anything, phase delay would impact soundstage. I can say that the that some of the most distinct sound-stage listening I've noticed have been single-driver and phase-coherent (focused) designs; but they share other traits in common as well (they were almost all near-field and either very open space (single drivers) or very felt-covered to control off-axis output (phase coherent). So it's not necessarily cause and effect.

Further: as I understand it this was rather studied by Toole etc, and there was no ling found between phase coherency and speaker preference.
 
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monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Absolute phase? Absolute phase is an unnecessary goal and has been proven as such several times. :)

That said, relative phase is not a bad goal to shoot for! :)

Further: as I understand it this was rather studied by Toole etc, and there was no ling found between phase coherency and speaker preference.
Kevin V. and Toole (I think Toole) did tests (separately) of absolute phase and came to the conclusion that it matters not..
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Absolute phase? Absolute phase is an unnecessary goal and has been proven as such several times. :)

That said, relative phase is not a bad goal to shoot for! :)



Kevin V. and Toole (I think Toole) did tests ...
But who needs science in the magic of music. ;) :D
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Absolute phase? Absolute phase is an unnecessary goal and has been proven as such several times. :)
I have some recordings of Louis Armstrong. The absolute phase has a more-than-half-century delay. How many degrees of phase is that?
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
Some speaker manufacturers prioritize phase accuracy, like Thiele. Their speakers are supposed to be decent, regardless. From my study of speaker design over the last few years, a flat power response is probably the best compromise. The majority of speaker designers do that.

Jim
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Some speaker manufacturers prioritize phase accuracy, like Thiele.
They prioritize both. They use "first order" crossovers for absolute phase and time delay for relative phase.

Richard Vandersteen is an example of one of those guys living back in '72 when absolute phase was important. Saying things like first order crossovers don't have phase shift, even though it does...
 
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Dr. Parthipan

Junior Audioholic
I had in interesting discussion with a physicist on another board (he's here too) discussing frequency-dependent phase-delay in relationship to wires (Characteristic impedance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) including a suggestion on how to create an exaggerated version with a mono source.

This would suggest that true phase-coherency is an unachievable goal as your phase problems would start at the microphone cable and just get worse as time goes on.
I'm surprised to hear you saying that cables even have a sound. I think I remember you saying in another thread that all cables are essentially the same. Isnt that what you used to believe?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I'm surprised to hear you saying that cables even have a sound. I think I remember you saying in another thread that all cables are essentially the same. Isnt that what you used to believe?
Essentially but not specifically.

A properly engineered cable has no audible impact.

It is completely possible for someone to design a cable as a filter and alter sound. It is completely possible to use a cable with too high an impedance (in which case, there's a FR distortion which follows the curvature of the speakers resistance). It's been asserted (and I have not tested to disprove) that it's possible (via AC impedance) to introduce a frequency-dependent phase delay intentionally which affects imaging (the requirements to attempt to illustrate are extreme).

I have never asserted that a cable cannot affect sound. I have asserted that a properly built cable *doesn't* affect sound and so there is no room for detectable improvement.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
They prioritize both. They use "first order" crossovers for absolute phase and time delay for relative phase.

Richard Vandersteen is an example of one of those guys living back in '72 when absolute phase was important. Saying things like first order crossovers don't have phase shift, even though it does...
That is absolutely true, any analog crossover has phase shift. Worse once you physically separate drivers in space all notion of phase coherency goes out of the window.

As I have pointed out before, practically no recordings are phase coherent.

I personally believe Ted Jordan is correct though, phase shifts disconnecting over tones from their harmonics is not a good thing, but we are used to it.

There really is only one way to test this, and that is with a single full range driver and a minimalist coincident phase coherent recording.

I have been putting a system together for Afterlife2. I have been listening to the speakers I have sent him that use one four inch full range driver. No crossover and only one driver. I have made many phase coherent recordings. Playing these on these speakers after a long absence pulled my up short. The sound was incredibly alive and real. There were limitations of course in terms of power. But this test I have performed many times over the years has convinced me that you should not be cavalier about this issue.

It will be interesting to get Afterlife's take on this as I sent him some of my phase coherent recordings.
 
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Dr. Parthipan

Junior Audioholic
I have never asserted that a cable cannot affect sound. I have asserted that a properly built cable *doesn't* affect sound and so there is no room for detectable improvement.
The question is why are there so many different cables on the market with such a wide range of prices? Is it really so difficult to make a cable which does not act as a filter? For it to act as a filter it would need to possess a lot of capacitance and inductance which most short cables do not. So it must all be snake oil no?
There is no way to prove this. Even a double blind test might not be adequate.
 
D

Dr. Parthipan

Junior Audioholic
As I have pointed out before, practically no recordings are phase coherent.

What do you mean that no recordings are not phase coherent? Lets define what you mean by phase coherent first.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
The question is why are there so many different cables on the market with such a wide range of prices?
Because they sell. Snake oil is common.

Is it really so difficult to make a cable which does not act as a filter? For it to act as a filter it would need to possess a lot of capacitance and inductance which most short cables do not. So it must all be snake oil no?
It is not difficult to make an cable which has no audible impact on sound. "generic cable" does a fine job. See monoprice, Parts-express, BJC, etc.

There is no way to prove this. Even a double blind test might not be adequate.
So we might test to find the difference inaudible despite the difference being audible? Really?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
What do you mean that no recordings are not phase coherent? Lets define what you mean by phase coherent first.
Most recordings are made with a multiplicity of microphones widely scattered about. Now every microphone hears everything, but intensity dies down with distance from the source. This is called bleed.

The result is basically a cacophony of sound at every mic. It is a wonder recordings sound as good as they do.

In minimalist set ups, there are two ways of going about it.

Phase difference stereo and intensity stereo.

Phase difference is the system usually chosen on these types of set up. If you own any Telarc recordings then that is what you are hearing. This involves widely spaced omnidirectional microphones at some distance from the source. Obviously this is not phase coherent, but better then a bunch of mics scattered about.

Intensity stereo, which was invented by the originator of stereo recordings, Allan Blumlein, involves the right and left pair being coincident in space.

The mics can be cardiod, figure if 8 or matrix M-S.

Best results are obtained with very expensive auditorium sound field microphones.

I used the Neumann SM-69 FET. I still have it safely tucked away.



The top capsule can rotate with respect to the lower capsule. The pick up patterns can be varied remotely.

I made some xy figure of 8 recordings, but mainly the very unusual M-S Matrix recordings. This was for two reasons. A lot of my recordings were for radio broadcast. An M-S recording gives a listener with a mono radio a perfect mono signal, since they only hear one capsule. The other reason is that when the session is monitored with very good accurate speakers, the recording engineer has a lot of control over the sound field, especially the depth of field. You can absolutely not monitor these types of sessions with headphones.

Sometimes I would use an even more unusual technique, especially for chamber music. I would use omni mics spaced about 9" apart with a plexiglass baffle between them. I made a special stand for this.

These techniques are virtually unknown and hardly practiced in North America.

They used to be common in Europe.

The big problem is that it to some extent precludes the use of spot mics. However since I was often working with non professional singers, I would spot mic them gently with an omni mic most often. I would follow the score and gently spot them during their solo. This did not upset the apple cart significantly, and made for a better production over all.

In these recordings I find the sound deteriorates as the phase aberrations of the speaker increase. In speakers that really play fast and loose with phase, even if they are otherwise satisfactory speakers, these recordings actually sound quite bad.

For this reason, in my designs I try and minimize phase aberrations.

These recordings also contain a lot of accurate spacial information and sound excellent with algorithms like Dolby plx2 music.

I think I was sensitized to the problem of phase shifts early in life. I was a full ranger until around 1984. I still am at heart. I certainly do not regard full range driver enthusiasts as nutters by a long shot.

Also at that time I adopted full range speakers, specifically the Jordan Watts modular loudspeaker, the BBC were using phase coherent techniques for their broadcast, especially the Proms from the Royal Albert Hall. They used large diaphragm ribbons as figure of 8 Blumlein pair.

So that is how you make a phase coincident recording. I would say it is impossible to make a phase coherent pop or rock recording at this time.

To answer your original question, if you want a phase coherent speaker you have two choices. You need to use a full range driver. I think most full range enthusiasts make their own cabinets. Lowther have a range of complete full range driver horn loaded speakers as well as drivers for sale.


Your other option is the Quad electrostatic.




I'm not aware of any other options, no matter what their designers may claim.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Another concern I have with the multi-use of phase is that phase is frequency dependent in measurement in a way different from real output.

If I take a waveform we consider "completely in phase" and I play it perfectly one millisecond later; the phase shift on 1khz is 180, but the phase shift on 500hz is 90.
The problem is that the waveform is *completely identical* to the original. The description of phase makes it seem like the two frequencies are out of sync with each other relative to the original (relative phase shift) when in fact they are not.

In fact, if I were to make a frequency dependent delay so that phase shift was constant across all frequencies (at, say, 90 degrees); then 500hz would occur .5ms earlier relative to 1khz than it did in real life.

Phase numbers are misleading.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I think I was sensitized to the problem of phase shifts early in life. I was a full ranger until around 1984. I still am at heart. I certainly do not regard full range driver enthusiasts as nutters by a long shot.
Interesting. The guy that built the speakers that reside in my bedroom also had a slight bent towards SDFR speakers; one of his models was a small bookshelf with a single 4.5" driver (don't know the model off the top of my head, but they were from Creative Sound Solutions) with a claimed response of 60Hz-20kHz. He also offered a bipolar tower which featured the same driver up front and a more bandwidth limited version on the rear all coupled to a quarter wave resonator. This was his original offering:

alegrialing

My bookshelves are a more conventional two way design, though I'd have liked to have heard some of those other models. Unfortunately, as occasionally happens with a DIYer trying to turn pro, he didn't make it into the big time. Not sure what he's up to now, but I am still enjoying his speakers regularly. Actually, my 15 month old son now likes to dance to music playing on them, so they're getting more of a workout than usual :D
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Would these be considered phase coherent drivers?

 
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