Performance of ceiling speakers on exposed basement ceiling?

R

rnaeye

Junior Audioholic
Hi,
I am planning to install couple of overhead ceiling speakers for Atmos on my basement ceiling. The basement ceiling has exposed joists which are spaced 14 inches apart and 12-inch depth (height of the joists). Speakers I had in mind has 3.75” height. Thus, there is 8.25 inch space between speaker and hardwood ceiling. I am wondering if such small space would have negative effect on acoustic properties of the speakers. If so, should I look for speakers contained in box. I am assuming that ceiling speakers are designed for ceiling below roof which has a lot of empty space. Also I need to find a way of installing them (I may have to go DIY or find a bracket if anyone sells them).

I am considering a pair of RSL C34E MKII, but I am open to suggestions for alternative brands. Your feedback is much appreciated. Thank you.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
When you install ceiling and in-wall speakers, the wall cavity acts as the cabinet. It sounds like you are proposing to install the speaker on a bracket and use it without a baffle (hanging between the joists). That will not work as the speaker is designed to work with a closed baffle. If you don't want to drywall the ceiling or install tile, you should go with boxed speaker or box in the section where the RSL speaker will go. The manufacturer can recommend the volume of the box if you build your own boxes. It's not so much the depth of the cavity but the total volume that you need to consider. If installing the speakers between the joists, you could consider a good quality outdoor speaker that would include mounting brackets, or small bookshelves that come with mounting bracket support on the rear of the cabinet. That would also allow you to aim the speakers at the main seating position.
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
Have you considered mounting bookshelves high on the wall near the ceiling instead?

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi,
I am planning to install couple of overhead ceiling speakers for Atmos on my basement ceiling. The basement ceiling has exposed joists which are spaced 14 inches apart and 12-inch depth (height of the joists). Speakers I had in mind has 3.75” height. Thus, there is 8.25 inch space between speaker and hardwood ceiling. I am wondering if such small space would have negative effect on acoustic properties of the speakers. If so, should I look for speakers contained in box. I am assuming that ceiling speakers are designed for ceiling below roof which has a lot of empty space. Also I need to find a way of installing them (I may have to go DIY or find a bracket if anyone sells them).

I am considering a pair of RSL C34E MKII, but I am open to suggestions for alternative brands. Your feedback is much appreciated. Thank you.
In that situation the speakers absolutely need a back box, otherwise the front and back waves emanated cancel each other, as they are 180 degrees out of phase.

In my view ALL of these ceiling speakers should be enclosed. The usual system of plonking a speaker in the ceiling space is just bad unacceptable engineering, and I would NEVER countenance it in any system I designed.
 
R

rnaeye

Junior Audioholic
This is great information. I emailed RSL to see what their tech support would say. It would be much easier for me to buy Prime Elevation (expensive although I can afford) or install a satellite speakers on the ceiling, or buy an outdoor speaker, in which case it will be tricky to find a good one (in terms of audio quality) as there is not much information on these on the internet. Any opinion or using front highs vs ceiling to get Atmos for overhead effect?
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
This is great information. I emailed RSL to see what their tech support would say. It would be much easier for me to buy Prime Elevation (expensive although I can afford) or install a satellite speakers on the ceiling, or buy an outdoor speaker, in which case it will be tricky to find a good one (in terms of audio quality) as there is not much information on these on the internet. Any opinion or using front highs vs ceiling to get Atmos for overhead effect?
I believe front highs are better as you can aim the speaker where you want it. An overhead speaker points straight down and you have to deal with getting it positioned toward the sweet spot instead of the floor. Another alternative to the prime elevations are JBL Control CRV (I have 4 installed in my basement for atmos :)) Ypu can find them on amazon or ebay:

 
R

rnaeye

Junior Audioholic
I believe front highs are better as you can aim the speaker where you want it. An overhead speaker points straight down and you have to deal with getting it positioned toward the sweet spot instead of the floor. Another alternative to the prime elevations are JBL Control CRV (I have 4 installed in my basement for atmos :))
I may have to go with ceiling speakers, unless I can do the following: That is putting the front highs above front towers (proposed distance:towers 88 inch apart, and front highs 88 inch apart). Currently, the towers are 116 inch apart, and windows on the wall limit where I can put the front highs. If you think this is a bad idea, I must go with ceiling speakers. My current sitting position is 173" from TV or ~170" from the front towers. I have a lot of room behind the sitting position; it is a 40 ft long room. But I believe that is irrelevant.
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
I may have to go with ceiling speakers, unless I can do the following: That is putting the front highs above front towers (proposed distance:towers 88 inch apart, and front highs 88 inch apart). Currently, the towers are 116 inch apart, and windows on the wall limit where I can put the front highs. If you think this is a bad idea, I must go with ceiling speakers. My current sitting position is 173" from TV or ~170" from the front towers. I have a lot of room behind the sitting position; it is a 40 ft long room. But I believe that is irrelevant.
The thing to measure is the angles from your MLP to the speakers. If your room is on the narrow side you might need to move your MLP forward to get the right angles, between 22 and 30 degrees. Yes, the front height channels should be mounted above the left and right channels.

 
R

rnaeye

Junior Audioholic
The thing to measure is the angles from your MLP to the speakers. If your room is on the narrow side you might need to move your MLP forward to get the right angles, between 22 and 30 degrees. Yes, the front height channels should be mounted above the left and right channels.

I am wondering why Yamah TSR-700 manual recommends this for 5.1.2 for atmos (see attachment)
 

Attachments

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I am wondering why Yamah TSR-700 manual recommends this for 5.1.2 for atmos (see attachment)
The manuals are a good starting point but they are not 100% accurate. A lot of us with atmos systems can help you navigate that. As @witchdoctor posted its all about the angles and getting those right.

P.S. I'm a little jealous because exposed joists means you can mount bookshelves with brackets at the perfect angles angled correctly to the listening area. Most of us have to work with in ceiling which is doable but not as optimal.

I had to go with Focal to get the angles right and great sound up top and those weren't cheap.
 
R

rnaeye

Junior Audioholic
The manuals are a good starting point but they are not 100% accurate. A lot of us with atmos systems can help you navigate that. As @witchdoctor posted its all about the angles and getting those right.

P.S. I'm a little jealous because exposed joists means you can mount bookshelves with brackets at the perfect angles angled correctly to the listening area. Most of us have to work with in ceiling which is doable but not as optimal.

I had to go with Focal to get the angles right and great sound up top and those weren't cheap.
I did some calculations. If I narrow the distance between front speakers (due to windows on the wall), I have to move my sitting position closer to the TV, which I do not want. So, I have to find some small surround speakers and find a way of installing on the joists that run parallel to my TV. I have RSL CG3s but I give a try and see how it goes.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
This is great information. I emailed RSL to see what their tech support would say. It would be much easier for me to buy Prime Elevation (expensive although I can afford) or install a satellite speakers on the ceiling, or buy an outdoor speaker, in which case it will be tricky to find a good one (in terms of audio quality) as there is not much information on these on the internet. Any opinion or using front highs vs ceiling to get Atmos for overhead effect?
The manual shows the "presence" speakers in either front height or top middle position, so either can work but members would like to see photos of the room to make a recommendation. Yes, the Prime Elevation are good but the JBL Control X linked to above are a good deal. If this is just for movie effects you can be a little less concerned about sound quality, but if you are into multi-channel music then you might want to consider spending more. While I'm not a fan of B&W towers, I have heard the AM-1 outdoor speaker used indoors and they are quite good (but expensive). You might be able to find some used, but for $200 those JBLs should do the job and at that price you could always swap them out later (especially if you catch them on sale). The RSL ceiling speakers are quite popular but you'll need to build boxes (and add some poly-fill). Personally, I think that $1,000 for ATMOS speakers is overkill, so I would either start with the JBLs or go with Polk or Klipsch or SVS angled speakers, depending upon what speakers you have now and your budget.
 
witchdoctor

witchdoctor

Full Audioholic
I did some calculations. If I narrow the distance between front speakers (due to windows on the wall), I have to move my sitting position closer to the TV, which I do not want. So, I have to find some small surround speakers and find a way of installing on the joists that run parallel to my TV. I have RSL CG3s but I give a try and see how it goes.
You can treat the windows on the wall with a curtain if you need flexibility. I moved my MLP forward so it is the same distance between front and back speakers, GREAT results
 
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