PC recording questions for noob recorder

[Vigilante]

Quick adendum. The Behringer USB thingy got some pretty nasty reviews at zzounds. Don't know if I'd trust it. Can't tell. That's one thing I'm worried about using USB is that I would hope my PC can keep up. Which is would if it was direct audio lines.

 

[WmAx]

Quick adendum. The Behringer USB thingy got some pretty nasty reviews at zzounds. Don't know if I'd trust it. Can't tell. That's one thing I'm worried about using USB is that I would hope my PC can keep up. Which is would if it was direct audio lines.

It is known that the BCA2000 had many driver compatibility issues when it was first released. The compatibility problems are far less likely today using the latest software/drivers. There is always a chance of software compatibility issues with any drivers from any of these products. In any event, the trial period for any of this stuff from the pro music resellers are usually generous. If it would not work on your computer, you would simply return it for a full refund.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

So based on my initial reading over there, it seems all I need is a mixer. Plain and simple. Only it's not so simple, because the mixer isn't computer connected like with USB or Firewire. Which means I'd have to have a decent sound card to take the outputs from the mixer into the PC. One product, from Yamaha, is a 10 channel mixer: http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG102. It has the 2 mic inputs as well as others. But not direct PC connection. At the same time, it's cheap. And assuming I have a good sound card, can it get me good recordings?

I can't answer questions about the specific product. However, I have tried several random low cost mixers and many seem to have audible noise/hiss issues; that's unacceptable to me. I ended up with a Behringer UB1202 mixer that I use as a mic pre for acoustical measurements, as a general purpose headphone amp and for general recording. I find that it has no noise[it's silent] problems when you set the levels correctly. The mic pre seems fine as well. It also uses high quality parts[switches, pots and op amps] throughout, even though it's low cost. My only beef with it, is that there is not an on/off switch. You have to unplug it to turn it off. However, I do the opposite: it's been turned on for basicly 2 or 3 years straight.

Say you were to compare a general mixer like this, from whoever, to the M-Audio, or any USB/Firewire device; are they pretty much the same, only one adds USB/Firewire instead of making you use normal audio cables output to input?

That is basicly correct. However, the USB-computer units don't tend to have as many options as the stand alone mixers. The BCA2000 was an exception, and is not much more expensive that the M-Audio unit that you referenced, and that is why I suggested that unit.

There now you see why this is so confusing? How can it be both a mic and line input? If line inputs should only be connected to line outputs?

The channel may have two input stages instead of just one. A line level input and a mic level input. Thus it could be used for either purpose, but you would have to check the product details to see if this is the case.

Now that brings me back to another issue. Because I want to do all the effects and editing on the PC, why would I need a mixer? I would have no need to change pan or EQ or effects or even levels. I can do all that in the PC. So a mixer with 10 knobs per channel also seems overkill.
In the truest sense, all I need is a mic preamp and then lineout the signal to my linein on the soundcard. But since I want 2 channels or more, that becomes a mixer. But since I don't need the onboard effects, the USB connected devices are simpler in design, but can cost more then a small mixer.

It is true that you can get away without using a mixer, provided you have a mic preamp, since you will be doing all editing/mixing on the computer. It's a matter of what is easiest for you; as in do you want the further flexibility and routing that a mixer can provide for you in various situations?

If I wanted all effects onboard, I would probably shell out for a 4 track recorder instead and a mixer. Right? Not really computer controlled, but could be. And I could still have a lot of fun recording 4 tracks. But those recoders get up in price. And somehow the thought of recording to ancient tapes seems less then decent quality. So around my thoughts go to recording to PC again.

No need for analog tape. I think you can get a HD MiniDisc recorder with line input[albeit, only 2 channels] that can record relatively long using a lossless digital format if you need a relatively affordable portable recording system. A small mixer would be ideal to interface to it with.

As for the sound card route: the best low cost option is the E-MU 0404. It costs $100 and has technically superb performance, regardless of price. If you move up to the E-MU1212M($200), it is even better for your applications, as it has balanced inputs/outputs. These particular cards have massive signal to noise ratios, which mainly makes it easier for you record more easily without risk of clipping.

-Chris

 

[Vigilante]

Hey thanks for the info.

I've been talking on homerecording forums as well, and after some more discussion. I've decided to get the Tascam US-122. It's also a USB interface, same as MobilePre, but includes MIDI, better software, and likely better electronics. Plus I think it looks nicer, and was endorsed well over on the forums.

As for a mic, they also want to see me with a good condenser. My budget not withstanding, I can get a Behringer B1 on ebay for about $70. Which is $100 from zzounds, and MSRP for more.
If I buy both from ebay, that saves me about $60+ even after shipping. Plus the ebay deal going on right now I get a cool hard case, shock mount and pop shield with the mic. And I get free headphones and a mic from Tascam for the interface. Though I don't know what kind of mic, something cheap I imagine.

So for $60 cheaper and including more stuff, I think I'm going to try ebay. I get all software and full warranty with the Tascam, and the mic in question was used once for testing purposes. But I don't know about warranties, probably none on it.

What's your thoughts on these? And buying from ebay?

Thanks to everybody, I feel less confused these days. I just want to get some parts and get playing!
What XLR cable do you prefer, gimme some links to your favorites. And can I do "locking" cable? Is there a special name for XLR jacks that lock? Will a locking cable fit in a non-locking jack?

 

[jaxvon]

Sounds like you've made some good choices. I don't have any experience with the models you mentioned, and I can guarantee the people over on the other forums are more knowledgable than me on this stuff. As far as cables go, just find an inexpensive one that's built well. And all XLR connectors should be locking as well.

Oh, and as far as eBay goes, just make sure you're buying from a reputable seller that has lots of good feedback.

As for a quality Mic Cable, I'd get something like this. And while it won't sound any better than a cheaper cable, it will have a better build and last longer.

 

[Vigilante]

Well I bought the Tascam, the B1, and some XLR cable from zzounds along with a mic stand and boom. Interface and mic both from ebay stores. The Tascam new from an authorized dealer with full warranty. But not the mic, it was used once. But comes with hard case, shock mount, and pop shield.

The mic stand and XLR cable from zzounds, nothing special in that department.

Some people frowned on the Behringer B1, but it gets rave reviews everywhere I look. And the bad reviews are likely due to their own problems setting it up. I mean, compared to the $25 Radio Shack dynamic I have, or the $50 dynamic I WAS going to by, this large diaphram condenser will probably be just fine for me.

So hopefull I'll start getting some equip next week and see what I can do.

Thanks all!

 

[WmAx]

Well I bought the Tascam, the B1, and some XLR cable from zzounds along with a mic stand and boom. Interface and mic both from ebay stores. The Tascam new from an authorized dealer with full warranty. But not the mic, it was used once. But comes with hard case, shock mount, and pop shield.

The mic stand and XLR cable from zzounds, nothing special in that department.

Some people frowned on the Behringer B1, but it gets rave reviews everywhere I look. And the bad reviews are likely due to their own problems setting it up. I mean, compared to the $25 Radio Shack dynamic I have, or the $50 dynamic I WAS going to by, this large diaphram condenser will probably be just fine for me.

So hopefull I'll start getting some equip next week and see what I can do.

Thanks all!

This may seem unusual, but it should be a standard thing done in professional audio if accuracy/standards were in any way important to the majority of paricipants: You should have that microphone calibrated. This would entail mailing it to a person that would measure the true response of the microphone and provide you with a data file that contains the frequency response corrections. You can use this data file to apply inverse curves to achieve a flat/accurate response using a precision parametric equalizer. You can get a calilbration that is +/- 1db accurate for most of the audible spectrum for about $40 from Kim G. whom can be contacted on the forum located at www.madisound.com . So far as some people disliking Behringer, what are the actual reasons for this? Do they have a real reason? Or only ignorant and biased speculation(s)? The latter is unfortunately not uncommon.

-Chris

 

[Vigilante]

Someone on another forum had mentioned looking into Oktava MK219 or MK319, but I can't seem to find those in US. And to go to any other "quality" condenser means even another $50+ beyond the $70ish I got for the Behringer. I just can't see myself paying that for a first mic simply to mess around with.
The reviews on zzounds for the B1 were good enough for me, a LOT of people use this mic as they say it gives the quality you'd expect from a more expensive mic. And also a handful of people use the B1 for radio, and like it a lot. So we'll see what happens.

And based on your comment about calibration, that may not be a bad idea for this mic. Some people had mentioned that you can get better sound out of it with some EQ tweaking, especially in mid range.
But it all just comes down to how satisfied I am with the sound. I'll know that, soon enough!

 

[WmAx]

And based on your comment about calibration, that may not be a bad idea for this mic. Some people had mentioned that you can get better sound out of it with some EQ tweaking, especially in mid range.
But it all just comes down to how satisfied I am with the sound. I'll know that, soon enough!

(1) Calibration should be done for most microphones, as most[regardless of price] are not linear; refer to the manufacturer typical response plots. It appears that recording engineers like to use microphones as a coloation device, but tonal shaping should be done in post processing with a mastering equalizer, not when initially capturing the sound source.

(2) Quality of microphone: Primarily, you have frequency response, self-noise and maximum SPL response before distortion occurs and polar response. No mystery factors, though manufacturer specifications may not be accurate to compare between products[as measurement methods/standards may differ between manufacturers]. If the Behringer has sufficient dynamic range and noise levels for your purposes, then precision equalization will take care of anything from the tonal perspective. All that's left is the polar response.

-Chris

 

[Vigilante]

Sounds good, if only I knew what the heck you're talking about! lol

When I get that advanced, I'll surely move on in my hardware too.

Suffice to say, if somebody out there has a B1 and had it calibrated, would it be safe to think I could use same/similar settings on mine? Or are all identical mics not created equal?

update: products on order, shipping now!

 

[WmAx]

Sounds good, if only I knew what the heck you're talking about! lol

Please quote/itemize anything that was not clear and I will attempt to clarify.

Suffice to say, if somebody out there has a B1 and had it calibrated, would it be safe to think I could use same/similar settings on mine? Or are all identical mics not created equal?

update: products on order, shipping now!

The same model/make of microphones will generally show a common deviation. However, this is dependant on the consistance of the manufacturer during production. Besides, I doubt that you will find someone that has had such calibration performed on the B1. I recommend these things so that some sort of standardization is present, but overall, the recording industry has not shown much interest in this, so you would be one of the very few who has bothered to ensure a correction curve for your recordings to ensure accurate capture, if you so chose to do this. Interestingly enough, if you had an accurate calibration curve to make your recordings absolute nuetral initially, you could then apply a precise curve of another microphone to replicate the sound[assuming the polar response is similar].

-Chris

 

[Vigilante]

Thanks WmAx

Your "number 2" statement was some hefty "tech talk" to read. I get the self noise. That was about it.

As for the dynamic range, would that be the statement "20hz to 20khz"? Cause that is what this mic is, I believe. Or is that frequency respone?

You mentioned 4 items:

*frequency response
*self-noise
*maximum SPL response before distortion occurs
*polar response

I'm not sure what "mystery factors" are. But I can guess.

You asked if the Behringer had "sufficient dynamic range"; is 20hz-20khz sufficient? And sufficient for what? I will not be playing booming instruments with it, no drums or bass etc. My music isn't loud.

So what is the polar respone then? And lastly, are these items usually documented by manufacturers? Like would they ever mention what kind of self noise to expect? Or levels of it?
-----------------------

Okay well I finally got the US-122 in the mail, been trying to play with it and my cheapo 1/4" Radio Shack mic. I installed Cubase LE but I can't seem to get audio into it. Although if I open just the regular Windows recorder, I can get recordings. So there must be some place to begin calibration in Cubase LE. I'm just looking at the help file, and wet myself. So some shortcuts would be helpful.

Thanks again dude

 

[jaxvon]

20 to 20kHz is frequency reposne. Dynamic range is measured in dB. A high dynamic range microphone will be able to record very soft and very loud sounds without a problem.