Parasound P5, P7, Integrated 2.1 comparisons

[RichB]

Because of Dr. Rich's article about the OPA, Marantz apparently was forced to replace them with discrete components to preserve the quality of the whole chain though they initially claim the OPA did not make the difference, sort of.. Since the professional reviewers, even you and I read and know about it, all subsequent reviewers were biased and prepared to hear the difference. If you write to the right technical people in Marantz, I bet they will tell you if you don't need the new features, there is nothing to gain upgrading to the 8802 in terms of SQ. I strongly believe for H.T., 8801, 4520, 7200, 7707 makes no difference in SQ, for music you need a separate system. So I am watching from afar too.

This is a fair point but I don't mind if Marantz persues improved S/N and "sound quality".

The AV8801 has some obvious hiss coming from my tweeter. The power cord did not make good contact and hiss dramatically increased when I accidently brushed the plug. The power receptacle was replaced by Marantz (as well as the trigger).

I'd like to see more work done on digital processing. I don't think it is difficult to tell the difference between Pure Direct and Flat Stereo mode with digital sources on the AVR/Processors I have owned.

Audio Precision instruments in well powered lab may not be representative of performance in the home environment.

- Rich

 

[DD66000]

For music, I don't think you need a completely separate system. Using a pre-amp with bypass works just fine...same pair of mains, power amp. Assuming the mains are not "HT only speakers".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If your one system is equally mellifluous for both music and movies, you don't need 2 separate systems or 1 system with HT Bypass.

But many of us have more than one room (HT, family room, study room, dining room, bedrooms, rear patio, etc). So it's easy to see why we would want more than one system.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The AV8801 has some obvious hiss coming from my tweeter.

I can see why you got rid of it. I never heard hiss from the tweeters even on the very cheap Denon S500-BT AVR.

 

[PENG]

If your one system is equally mellifluous for both music and movies, you don't need 2 separate systems or 1 system with HT Bypass.

But many of us have more than one room (HT, family room, study room, dining room, bedrooms, rear patio, etc). So it's easy to see why we would want more than one system.

You hit half the nail in the head. Also, I don't think prepamp makes any audible difference to me but I know some people think preamp is important and I have no idea why they feel that way. Science don't seem to back that up either aside from my own experience. The 8801 sounds fine when I paired it with my two channel systems replacing the preamps and even the HA-1. I can't explain why my HA-1 direct to amp sounds so deadly but I also stated before I would likely fail any blind tests. Even my old AVR-3805 sounds great in my two channel systems. To me it is the placement, wire cluttering (believe me its a jungle back there) and everything else. I just don't feel good listening to two channel music if I can see all the gear and the big screen right in front of me.

 

[DD66000]

If your one system is equally mellifluous for both music and movies, you don't need 2 separate systems or 1 system with HT Bypass.

But many of us have more than one room (HT, family room, study room, dining room, bedrooms, rear patio, etc). So it's easy to see why we would want more than one system.

The diff between my "two" systems is the pre-amps.
Parasound P7 for everything but movies, HK AVR for movies.
P7 provides better depth of soundstage, plus the convince of being much easier to use...not having to go deep into some stupid menu just to change the sub level or balance.

I've had two and even three systems setup at a time. And I could do so now, if I desired.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You hit half the nail in the head. Also, I don't think prepamp makes any audible difference to me but I know some people think preamp is important and I have no idea why they feel that way. Science don't seem to back that up either aside from my own experience. The 8801 sounds fine when I paired it with my two channel systems replacing the preamps and even the HA-1. I can't explain why my HA-1 direct to amp sounds so deadly but I also stated before I would likely fail any blind tests. Even my old AVR-3805 sounds great in my two channel systems. To me it is the placement, wire cluttering (believe me its a jungle back there) and everything else. I just don't feel good listening to two channel music if I can see all the gear and the big screen right in front of me.

My next system would have minimal visible wires.

I would put all my electronics (except projectors) inside a walk-in HVAC closet with awesome cooling.

The only downside is that I will miss looking at my ATI amps and Denon AVP-A1HD.

 

[DD66000]

You hit half the nail in the head. Also, I don't think prepamp makes any audible difference to me but I know some people think preamp is important and I have no idea why they feel that way. Science don't seem to back that up either aside from my own experience. The 8801 sounds fine when I paired it with my two channel systems replacing the preamps and even the HA-1. I can't explain why my HA-1 direct to amp sounds so deadly but I also stated before I would likely fail any blind tests. Even my old AVR-3805 sounds great in my two channel systems. To me it is the placement, wire cluttering (believe me its a jungle back there) and everything else. I just don't feel good listening to two channel music if I can see all the gear and the big screen right in front of me.

I've always thought the pre-amp was more important than the power amp...the exception if the speakers are a very low sensitivity, thus need lots of power.
I don't know about the 8801, but my HK 3600 provides a wide soundstage, but tends to lack the depth of the P7.

As for wires, I keep a pretty tight ship, even though the rack contains 8 pieces of gear.

 

[PENG]

if not identical, to the P7...which is far superior to my HK AVR.

I missed this the first time I browsed this thread. Are you sure your HK AVR is not an exception for whatever reasons? I do have faith in HK but I am surprise their mid range AVR will suffer from soundstage issues. I have compared my Cambridge Audio and Marantz preamp (a high end vintage one) and my really old AVR3805. The AVR sounds just as good in every way. By extension, I therefore would bet the P5, P7 and the Integrated will sound audibly identical though theoretically they will yield different results on the bench. If I had the P7 and A23, I would keep it for the analogs, add an Oppo HA-1 for the digital and call it a day.

 

[PENG]

I've always thought the pre-amp was more important than the power amp...the exception if the speakers are a very low sensitivity, thus need lots of power.
I don't know about the 8801, but my HK 3600 provides a wide soundstage, but tends to lack the depth of the P7.

As for wires, I keep a pretty tight ship, even though the rack contains 8 pieces of gear.

Preamp deals with very low signal and typically lower gain. Overall, electronically speaking power amps and even DAC should matter much more than pre amps do. Adcom got it right, they started using Op amps when they launched the GFP565 that I still have and it sounds just as good as the my all discrete vintage Marantz, yes even the phono stage. Marantz rebuttal to Dr. Rich claimed the 8801 did not suffer because of the use of OPAs in their HDAM modules, I believe them, though they apparently did go with discrete approach in the 8802.

 

[DD66000]

I missed this the first time I browsed this thread. Are you sure your HK AVR is not an exception for whatever reasons? I do have faith in HK but I am surprise their mid range AVR will suffer from soundstage issues. I have compared my Cambridge Audio and Marantz preamp (a high end vintage one) and my really old AVR3805. The AVR sounds just as good in every way. By extension, I therefore would bet the P5, P7 and the Integrated will sound audibly identical though theoretically they will yield different results on the bench. If I had the P7 and A23, I would keep it for the analogs, add an Oppo HA-1 for the digital and call it a day.

I have the AVR 3600, which was the top o line of the x600 series...that said I find it to be less than my old 635, in a few ways.
I would think the P5, P7, Integrated to be very similar to each other, in SQ..though different in features.
I am most certainly thinking of adding a HA-1 as an option, if I don't decide on the 105D replacing my old Denon disc player. Obviously, I would not need both....
And combining the 105D with the P7 then puts two VC in the circuit...don't think the 105 has fixed volume out.

 

[RichB]

My next system would have minimal visible wires.

I would put all my electronics (except projectors) inside a walk-in HVAC closet with awesome cooling.

The only downside is that I will miss looking at my ATI amps and Denon AVP-A1HD.

Just get a nanny cam so you can check up on them from time to time

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I have the AVR 3600, which was the top o line of the x600 series...that said I find it to be less than my old 635, in a few ways.
I would think the P5, P7, Integrated to be very similar to each other, in SQ..though different in features.
I am most certainly thinking of adding a HA-1 as an option, if I don't decide on the 105D replacing my old Denon disc player. Obviously, I would not need both....
And combining the 105D with the P7 then puts two VC in the circuit...don't think the 105 has fixed volume out.

The 105D default to fixed output volume and many run the analog RCA and XLR through their PrePro thingy.
The HA-1 can be connected directly to you amplifier and one or both of its RCA and XLR analog inputs can be set to By-Pass which provided unity gain. Requirements:

1. The HA-1 must be powered on for HT By-pass.
2. You will have to split your trigger or use another aviable trigers.
3. For seamless operation, your remote must select the HA-1 input to the RCA/XLR for HT use.
4. Cooling may be reqired, because the HA-1 gets hot.

I have no experience with the P5 or P7 products but they are well regarded. The HA-1 when paired with a good HTPC and control software is austouning.

As I am a big proponent of experimentation, I have used J River to simulatenously stream to the 105D DAC, 105D DLNA, XMC-1 DAC, and there are sublte differences. Vive la différence

- Rich

 

[PENG]

I have the AVR 3600, which was the top o line of the x600 series...that said I find it to be less than my old 635, in a few ways.
I would think the P5, P7, Integrated to be very similar to each other, in SQ..though different in features.
I am most certainly thinking of adding a HA-1 as an option, if I don't decide on the 105D replacing my old Denon disc player. Obviously, I would not need both....
And combining the 105D with the P7 then puts two VC in the circuit...don't think the 105 has fixed volume out.

105 has fixed volume out for sure. I think on the audio side the 105 is 99% the same as the 105D and the only difference is in the DSD side of thing but I have to double check that one. It's been a while since I compare their specs.

 

[RichB]

Preamp deals with very low signal and typically lower gain. Overall, electronically speaking power amps and even DAC should matter much more than pre amps do. Adcom got it right, they started using Op amps when they launched the GFP565 that I still have and it sounds just as good as the my all discrete vintage Marantz, yes even the phono stage. Marantz rebuttal to Dr. Rich claimed the 8801 did not suffer because of the use of OPAs in their HDAM modules, I believe them, though they apparently did go with discrete approach in the 8802.

I did a quick comparission using an XLR switch to compare the HA-1 and AV8801 connected to the Parasound A21. Level matching is tough between the analog volume and AV8001 digital controlled volume. I got them damn close. So much so, that if you were sitting back in the room, you probably could not tell they switched.

Still, I think there was something there in favor of the HA-1 and did not have the assistance and engery required to get very long XLR cables required for me to try it alone.

It is possible that digital processing within these products, clock timing, Jitter? (I am not sure) matters; Low noise withing may improve the performance. So if the AV8802 sounds better, that is anothe area where they have made improvements.

Where I to tell you how my HA1 is connected to my BRIX I3 PC, I don't think I would survive the arrows and, right-now, I am still in recovering from the bi-amp thread.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

105 has fixed volume out for sure. I think on the audio side the 105 is 99% the same as the 105D and the only difference is in the DSD side of thing but I have to double check that one. It's been a while since I compare their specs.

They are the same DAC but implementation is different. I believe the HA-1 is stacked differently because it is fully balanced and has a Class-A headphone amp. Oppo has stated with each product they improve the implemenation of the 9018.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Still, I think there was something there in favor of the HA-1 and did not have the assistance and engery required to get very long XLR cables required for me to try it alone.

I don't know what it is, but using the HA-1 make me feel like I no longer need to upgrade. I bought quite a few vinyl albums recently and yet I no longer have the urge to even take them out of the shrink wraps. When I feel like listening to music I just use use Foobar with the HA-1, let those beryllium tweeters do the rest to convince me I am in the concert hall. This contradicts my belief that once the point of diminishing return is reached, the preamp does not matter any more.

 

[highfigh]

It's a long story.
It was a good funtionality but I had two separate trigger failures that caused the unit to be out for repair 2 of the 9 months I owned it. Subsequent posts on AVS indicate a less than robust trigger implementation.

Many claim the AV8802 is a better sounding unit, but until they make a better trigger design, I shall watch from afar

I like the XMC-1 Stereo Reference which truely bypass all DSP processing. The Marantz/Denon have many features that have the effect of making Pure/Direct almost soft of Pure/Direct

- Rich

Interesting that the trigger failed- it's not new/advanced technology and it really doesn't use much current. What was happening- trigger one device OK and then fall on its face with more?

 

[RichB]

I can't remember the details and there was some discussion on another forum. But, there appeared to be little protection against a short. My failures were a drop in voltage and a completely cooked circuit.

To be safe, power both components when connecting triggers.

- Rich