Paradigm vs. Polk

[Drummerboy]

i felt as if when i pushed them with the pioneer the speakers had some gas pedal left but the amp didnt, and the distortion became to much at "0" volume. I am currently looking at Denon, maybe higher than the 2807, to really light them up. The fxi and the rti4 are fine though of course, but the fronts and center just seem like they can really go further... the sub will make a huge difference, i will be a first pround owner of the newest VTF3 HO sub shipping in april that i have already pre ordered. Im running 15 guage wire right now, do you think thats the problem? the longest run in 35 feet...

 

[PENG]

I have not added an amp yet. I've yet to come across one I've really liked. When I do, it will be a vintage 70's amp. I'm trying to track down a clean Sansui. MacManNM promised me a Proton to demo, but seems to have lost it. Right.

The reason for the amp is for cleaner bass down low in the towers. The caps in the 3805 are impressive, and 120x2 is nothing to scoff at. I'm running a simple Audiosource EQ11 which does wonders for the low end at lower levels. My room is almost 4100 cu/ft, and I do push the system on the weekends when the wife isn't around.

Which 87dB speakers do you have? That's odd 200x2 rms wouldn't light those up. Do they sound great with the 3805 already?

In addition to those impressive caps, the transformer is quite big as well if you use all of its capability on only 2 channels. I think that is one of the reason why even at very high volume, it is able to keep up with my Adcom power amp. In fact, it was able to put out the same or slightly higher current in a test I conducted recently.

Your room is much bigger than mine, so may be you could benefit from an amp. Just make sure you get something that is capable of at least 300 WPC. Otherwise, it is unlikely that it would beat the 3805, not in terms of power anyway.

In my smaller room, 12X18X8, the first time I hooked up the Adcom, I thought the combo sounded noticeably better at high volume, but after a while I decided to some tests and serious comparison and found the perceived improvement appeared to be just Placebo effect. The 3805 alone is able to drive my Energy Veritas 2.3i (87 dB anechoic) easily and nicely. I tried the same comparison using another amp (300 WPC), still, any perceived improvement was minute.

 

[PENG]

i felt as if when i pushed them with the pioneer the speakers had some gas pedal left but the amp didnt, and the distortion became to much at "0" volume. I am currently looking at Denon, maybe higher than the 2807, to really light them up. The fxi and the rti4 are fine though of course, but the fronts and center just seem like they can really go further... the sub will make a huge difference, i will be a first pround owner of the newest VTF3 HO sub shipping in april that i have already pre ordered. Im running 15 guage wire right now, do you think thats the problem? the longest run in 35 feet...

15 gauge is a little thin, try 12 gauge. For 2 channel listening, if your front channel runs are 35 feet long, go with 10 gauge.

 

[Drummerboy]

bah i thought i was cheapin out with the wires... got good interconnects though

 

[PENG]

bah i thought i was cheapin out with the wires... got good interconnects though

Sorry, even 12 ga wires would cost a fortune if all your 7 runs are that long. Is it possible make re-position your receiver/amp?
Those RTi speakers do draw some currents, longer and thinner wires mean higher voltage drop, nothing you can do to change that rule.

 

[Drummerboy]

being a room with a projector, i connot repostion the reciever. The runs are uneven, like FR is 25 ft, FL is 20ft, C is 25, SL is right above the reciever, SR is bout 25ft, both SB are about 20 FT. I could search for a good deal on a spool of 12 guage, however the sheer volume of copper will make the price high. Ill look around...

 

[Johnny Canuck]

A question for PENG and Buckeye:

do the RTI 12's take more power to drive than the RTI 10's? I know Buck has the 10's. As Buckeye knows, i have a power amp on the so called subwoofers on the 12's. I really don't hear much of a difference except in stereo mode, it really sounds nice. I know it''s taking the strain off the receiver. I am only sitting 7 feet away from these towers so I have severe overkill in this room and with my Hsu STF 3, it's kind of stupid in this room.

On an unrelated note, I have discovered the analogs in 2 channel on my Denon 2910 and just love it!! CDs sound so good using external in on the 3805 with this player. The bass is so tight and powerful, much moreso than digital.

JC

 

[PENG]

A question for PENG and Buckeye:

do the RTI 12's take more power to drive than the RTI 10's? I know Buck has the 10's. As Buckeye knows, i have a power amp on the so called subwoofers on the 12's. I really don't hear much of a difference except in stereo mode, it really sounds nice. I know it''s taking the strain off the receiver. I am only sitting 7 feet away from these towers so I have severe overkill in this room and with my Hsu STF 3, it's kind of stupid in this room.

On an unrelated note, I have discovered the analogs in 2 channel on my Denon 2910 and just love it!! CDs sound so good using external in on the 3805 with this player. The bass is so tight and powerful, much moreso than digital.

JC

I listened to the RTi10 many times and I know even a HKAVR630 can drive it very well unless you are in a large room (like Buckeye's). I have never spent much time on the RTi12 but based on its specifications I am sure this thing will draw more power than the 10's and can take advantage of your NAD2200. You did the right thing, the 3805 should be able to give you very transparent sound powering only the 12's high and mid drivers, especially in pure direct using the 2910's analog outputs. I have the 3910 so I know what you mean.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Put it this way.

The RTi10's can handle 20-300 watts rms.

The RTi12's can handle 50-500 watts rms.

Do you realize how much power 500 watts rms is? How many amplifiers deliver 500 watts rms? If Polk is that confident in telling us you can use 500 watts rms to power these speakers, they've done some serious thought in the design of the efficiency and crossover.

Here's an amp capable of driving the RTi12's to their limits:

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1043&product=MC501

This one is 200 watts shy per channel:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Krell-KSA-50S-Power-Amplifier-Critically-Acclaimed_W0QQitemZ5877289419QQcategoryZ39783QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one will drive the RTi10's to their limits (one amp I am very fond of and one of the best ever made IMHO): http://cgi.ebay.com/SANSUI-BA-5000-VINTAGE-STEREO-POWER-AMPLIFIER-NICE-300W_W0QQitemZ5878244701QQcategoryZ39783QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Most guys don't realize how much power 300 and 500 wpc is, and how expensive it can get to purchase this type of "clean" power. When speaker mfg's design a tower that can handle this type of power, there is a steep curve where these speakers "open up." Pay a visit to a McIntosh dealer sometime, and you'll see how their speakers don't open up until serious power is pumped into them. I was at a home and garden show last weekend, and a pair of McIntosh towers were being fed well over 120 watts a side, and the level was comfortable to listen to.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Thanks Buckeye

how much are these? I am not really familiar with amps, but I assume a monoblock means I need two of these?

I know there is another thread on this, but does an amp make things sound better, remember, I am in a small room and my speakers are only 7 feet away. I have never had my Denon receiver to -20 anyways.

The NAD I have is only 100 W per channel but with 6db of headroom, this is like 400W isn't it?

JC

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Your speakers being 7 feet away, you really don't need an amp. You need a larger room and an amp. To get triple 7" drivers to reproduce bass that usually comes out of a single 12" driver, you'll need some serious acoustics and volume. I'm guessing your room probably doesn't provide that area. The sound waves probably don't get a chance to make their way around the room, thus giving those towers a chance to really shine. Can you post some pics of your room?

 

[tdeluce]

I have Polks and I have to admit, the Paradigms are a step up. Not much better, but yes they are from my RTi's . The Lsi series by Polk are awesome though , but you need enormous amounts of power to drive them.

JC

Yep, the LSi series are very thirsty - great speakers but do yourself a favor
and get a powerful AMP for them...

 

[PENG]

Yep, the LSi series are very thirsty - great speakers but do yourself a favor
and get a powerful AMP for them...

His RTi12 are thirsty too, but for 2 channel music, his NAD2200 can deliver 400WPC on demand (not continuous), that's more than enough for his small room.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Thanks for the advice guys..

as Buck knows, I tried that NAD 2200 on the RTI 12's at full range, not just on the woofers and the sound was too bright. The RTIs are a tad bright but maybe at 7 feet, the sound waves are not getting to me at the same time as everything else.

On another note, I notice someone selling an amp in the classifieds today, a Carver m-1.0t , 500W x2 @ 4ohms, $350.
What's this amp like?

JC

 

[WeAreSurrounded]

Buck, how do you use the EQ with your 3805 ?

"The reason for the amp is for cleaner bass down low in the towers. The caps in the 3805 are impressive, and 120x2 is nothing to scoff at. I'm running a simple Audiosource EQ11 which does wonders for the low end at lower levels. My room is almost 4100 cu/ft, and I do push the system on the weekends when the wife isn't around."
*************************************************
Hey, Buck

I've noticed in your post that you're using the Audiosource EQ with the 3805 in 2-ch mode. Does it really help a lot ? What kind of calibration did you use when setting it up ? And how did you you set it up - I presume the EQ goes between 2-ch Input source (CD or DVD player) and 3805's analog input?
Or maybe you put in on the EXT.IN front channels lines ?
Or maybe again you're just using it for the bass meaning LFE Out line to the subwoofer ?
I myself got Denon 3803 (8x110W) and Paradigm Monitors surround setup:
Mains: Paradigm Monitors 9, center: CC370, surr: Mini-Monitors, sub: Paradigm PS-1200 (soon to be replaced by Carver's Domintaor D-12, posssibly).
I can attest (coming back to the main topic) that Paradigm Monitor line is quite impressive
, but I'm still not getting what I expected (based on specs, reviews and Forums) from my setup
So maybe my just purchased (old equalizer) BSR EQ3000 and the RS SPL meter (as well as you comments and advices) would help in that matter.

Thanks in advance for any input.
-----------------------------------------
Denon 3803 (8x110W)
Paradigm Monitor 9 (v2) - mains
Paradigm CC370 (v2) - center
Paradigm Mini-Monitors (v2) - surrunds
Paradigm Mini-Monitors (v2) - ZONE 2
Paradigm PS-1200 -sub
[hopefully: soon to be replaced by Carver's Domintaor D-12]

Cambridge Audio Azur 540CD
Denon DVD-2200
BSR 3000EQ
Pioneer plasma HD4304
Scientific Atlanta HD8300 cable/DVR box

Audioquest and Monster cables

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I too am interested in how an EQ is incorporated into a system. I thought EQ's were bad for digital sources, but if there is a way to use it on analog music, that would be nice.It's a Technics EQ so it might make my 3805 sound bad..

JC

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

EQ's are simple to integrate with analog sources. Simply run your digital coax cables as you normally would from your dvd and cable box to the AVR. Now run the red/white analog rca cables from those same sources to the eq, and out from the eq to the receiver. You can also hook up a vcr, tape deck, etc... to the eq.

Since the souce from the eq is only 2 channel, you now can use the AVR's dsp modes. PLIIx, DTS Neo6, 7 channel stereo, etc... all work eq'd. Pure DTS and DD will require a digital connection, so those sources won't be eq'd - but they're usually more dynamic anyhow.

What's best is 2 channel cable through 7 channel stereo - eq'd. It's amazing the sq you can get from standard tv with a bit of adjustment.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Even with a so-so EQ like the Technics mid 1990's EQ?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Even with a so-so EQ like the Technics mid 1990's EQ?

How many band? It's a signal processor, so I'm sure it would do just fine. You may not have the flexibility of some of the Behringer eq's (gain/bandwidth), but you'll definitely hear an improvement.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Hi Buckeye..

a little confused on how to hook up the EQ. I take it I want to avoid the digital connections and just go analog. You can see my gear from my signature. Thanks again. You are such a wealth of information around here.

JC