Paradigm vs. Axiom conundrum!!!! Help...

[mtbound10]

Another issue...

I like the paradigm studio 20's I listened to this week. They are the new v5 series and they sound great. They are well balanced, the highs are not over the top and the lows are right there where they need to be. The cost is around 700 a pair with another 200 or so added on for stands.

My curiosity though is still spiked by Axiom and their very well respected reputation. The speakers look solid, and for the price I am going to spend on a smaller paradigm speaker I could get much more with the Axiom. I could probably get a M60 for about the same price.

What do you guys thing?

 

[agarwalro]

Buy the speaker that sounds better to you... The Axiom forum has a list of owners offering to demo their rigs.

Incidently, no joke, just last night I was thinking of putting up my M60's on CL. So to get them demo ready I changed my setting to 2.0 and tried to identify tracks with detail (AH oriented buyer) and wow factor (rest of world). Here's what made the list,

1) Dave Brubeck - Take Five [Take Five]
2) Van Hallen - Doin Time [Balance]
3) A Perfect Circle - The Noose [Thirteenth Step]
4) Vivaldi - Spring [Four Seasons]
5) Paul Van Dyk - Vega (Starecase remix) [Columbia EP]

Well... they are no longer up for sale.

 

[mtbound10]

agarwalro... What up!

Thanks for the response... hopefully your good name will get a few more people in the loop!

Back to you though...

I am glad to hear that you and your M60's are trying to work things out. I just spoke with someone over at Axiom about choosing the right speaker and I still need some more input.

I just tried some of the new Paradigm Studio 10v5 ( my post said "20's by accident) last week and I really really like them. They had great balance and the clarity was impeccable. I am looking for a speaker that is more clarity than muffled base. I listen to a great deal of singer/songwriter type music all the way to Tool and system of a down... with that being said I need something that can handle whatever I can throw at it.

I also enjoy the home theater aspect of the system and love to watch a good blu ray movie because it is better than being in a theater!

How has your experience with Axiom so far compared to say a bigger name brand like B+W or Paradigm that you might have used or auditioned?

 

[fredk]

Well... they are no longer up for sale.

Nothing like getting reaquainted with your speakers.

 

[fredk]

I agree with agarwalro, see if you can find someone in your area to give you an audition.

Do you currently have a sub or were you planning on picking one up. To me, most bookselves need a sub, even the Studio 20s.

fwiw, I listened to the studio 20, 40 and 60 before auditioning Axiom stuff and I felt they compared very well.

If you can't find an audition, just order a pair of fronts for a 30 day eval. Maybe you can arrange for an in home demo of the studio 20 against whatever you order from Axiom.

Also, do a search on the main audioholics site for Axiom M22 and you will find a bookshelf shootout review where both the M22 and the Studio 40 were covered. I think it will give you a good sense of where Axiom stands compared to the Studio line.

 

[agarwalro]

I put my current setup together over 2 years and was starting out with a purely stereo (no video) rig and it was going to remain 2.0 for about a year before I could make any additions/ changes (I had already made up my mid that I would get nothing other than a PB-12 Ultra for the sub). So I decided to get floorstanders.

I had tried everything at Fry's Electronics, Best Buy, Magnolia AV (they were not a BB in-store then) and Definitive Audio here in the Seattle area. I dont remember the exact model numbers now but remember really liking a couple of bookshelf speakers at Magnolia, Def Tech (midrange sound) and B&W (overall) and some others at Definitive Audio, but they were outside my price range and I did not like the fact that they were only bookshelf. Basically the bookshelf speakers though sounding good could not be justified on the price to feelings scale. I definitely remember not particularly liking any floorstanders (when compared to the bookshelfs that I liked) in the $1000 range and anything I liked turned out to be laughably expensive given my budget. A pesky Definitive Audio rep (after having been ignored for the better part of 20-30 minutes) tried to talk me into buying a B&W floorstanding speaker for $7000-ish. I was so irritated that I said "Did you not listen to me when I said my budget is $1000" and just walked out.

Axiom had (has) a good rep on AH and a bullet proof return policy so I gave the M60's a shot. The rest as they say, is history...

In my younger years, I had played guitars for a hobby band and the drums on Doin Time reminded me of the garage band days... I could close my eyes and almost pretend there was a live drum kit being played... Their mids and highs (guitars and tom's) sound very real. I fell in love with them instantly. Did I mention they looked way way better than anything else in the price range?

The memory of the compromise (price and needing full range speakers) combined with upgraditis was what prompted the idea of putting the M60's on CL. But after last nights listening session, I realized they are are actually very good. Unless I move higher in the price bracket by getting bookshelf rather than floorstanding speakers, achiving better sound quality would not be easy and also be a matter of preference. (I sincerely thank AH for that enlightenment)

The M60's and from previous comments the M80's too are placed on the sweet end of the Law of Deminishing Returns for speakers.

 

[fredk]

Their mids and highs (guitars and tom's) sound very real.

I play guitar as well and found the same thing for acoustic guitar.

I agree that these two speakers are in the sweet spot. You can buy better, but it starts to cost.

From reading a recent AH review, the Salk Songtower, though at a higher price point, also offers a lot of value.

 

[agarwalro]

Their mids and highs (guitars and tom's) sound very real.

I had meant to say, "their mids (guitars and tom's) and highs (hihats, cymbals) sound very real"...

Also to add, as far as the high end of the spectrum, just like in real life, when the drummer goes wild on the dishes, it starts to hurt after a little bit (anyone who has been in the presence of an overzealous drummer knows exactly what I mean). It is no different on the Axioms.

 

[mtbound10]

I am still up in the air about a decision.

I have a feeling I will end up ordering a pair of axiom m60's and trying them out at home. I am waiting for a pair of Studio 20's to get in to my local audio store cause I want to listen to those since I had the opportunity to listen to the studio 10's and like them so much.

For what it is worth though I have a sub that I intend to keep and a fairly small room right now that will graduate to midsized to large by mid summer. So I guess my quandry is do I stick with the higher priced studio 10's or 20's or move on to the M60's... I have read mixed emotions on here about the balancing between base and midrange on the M60's which is one thing that I really enjoyed about the paradigm studios... so I am

 

[fredk]

If you are up in the air like that, wait until the 20s are in the store and then order up a pair of M60s and do an in home a/b comparo. If the store knows they will loose the sale unless you do an in home comparison, they are likely to agree.

For the potential cost of shipping a pair of speakers back, you will have the peace of mind of knowing that you chose the best speaker.

 

[mtbound10]

I listened to the Studio 60v5's yesturday. They sounded really nice but a little heavy on the "bass" and low ened. They are 4 drivers, one high frequency, on Bass/midrange and two Bass drivers. I just wish the Bass/Midrange was all midrange!

The listening will continue.

 

[fredk]

Hmm. The Studio line is considered a neutral speaker series with a relatively flat frequency response across its range.

Have you always owned bookshelf speakers in the past?

Since you really like the Studio 20, I suspect that what you hear as heavy bass is frequencies below some point that you are not used to hearing.

Looking at the frequency response of both the Studio 100 and the Studio 20 over at soundstageav.com The 20 has a slight hump between 100Hz and 200Hz compared to the 100 and rolls off quickly below 90Hz compared to the 100 which extends much lower. Note, I am using the 100 as a stand in as there are no measurements for the 60.

The 100-200Hz hump would give a little emphasis to the 'midbass' and the steep roll off below 90Hz. would eliminate that 'heavy' low end you don't like.

In my view, the bass on the 60 is more accurate, but in the end, its what you like that counts.

Edit: another thought. Did you make sure that the tone controls were at the neutral position before you listened to the 60s?

 

[oppman99]

Lots of good advice thrown around so far. If you are considering the Paradigm 60's, I would recommend giving the 100's a listen if they aren't too far out of your price range. IMO the 100's are definately a step above the 60's. I can't offer any advice on axiom since I have never heard them. They were on my list when I was looking, but I ended up with a great deal on a pair of 100's. Have you considered used? From what I have read so far, there is little sonic difference between the v.4 and v.5 Paradigms. I know, the v.5 look very nice. I will admit the 20's are very impressive for a bookshelf. The first time I heard them, I couldn't believe I wasn't hearing a tower speaker. I do think you will want a good sub if you go with them though. Good luck!

 

[mtbound10]

So far I liked the sound of the 10's over the 60's. I know that the 60's carry more range but I am looking for clarity in the mids. So far all the floorstanders that I have looked at go from on tweeter, one mid and one sub to one tweeter, on mid and two subs...!!! If I could find something that sticks with one of each or at least two mids and one sub I would be content. I do not mind the idea of a bookshelf but I like the idea of floorstanders better so right now it is just find the right pair.

Also... I intend to keep my sub which I like and think has a good range and good response... can I take a "large" speaker like a studio 60 or 100 and set them as small to focus the LFE through my sub? If I do would that focus the front floorstanders like a studio 60 towards the midrange and a little more clarity. I hate when you take a great floorstanding speaker like the studio 60 or 100 and you muffle out all the good mid range and tweeter range sounds with an overpowering bass!!!!!!!!!!

 

[oppman99]

What are you using for a preamp? If your pre has an equalizer, you might be able to adjust it to bring out more of the midrange that you're looking for. Make sure you save your current settings before you start though. You might find that your current settings are bass heavy. I'm guessing you have bookshelves currently? Another option is to set the bass output to just the sub and maybe lower the volume. I think you may hear more mids that way.

 

[mtbound10]

oppman~

I am using compact EMP bookshelf speakers right now for my fronts, surround and center channel...

I am liking the idea of the Axiom M80. Although I have not heard it yet, it is the only floorstanding speaker I have looked at so far that matches up the high, mid and bass equally or close to it anyway. Every other floorstander I have looked at from Paradigm, BW, EMP... they all seem to be 1 part tweeter, 1 part mid, and 2 or 3 part subwoofer! This is all well and good but the subs end up drowning out the clarity of the mids and tweeters.

I like to watch movies and assorted tv shows where I do appreciate a solid bass, but I have a decent dedicated sub to take care of that... I also listen to a lot of folky singer/songwriter music where clarity is clutch!(for me anyway)

Unless I hear otherwise in the next week or so I will probably order up some Axiom M80's to give them a listen at home. Otherwise I might move back towards the paradigms, but the 100's are out of my price range right now and the signatures which offer a bookshelf with a 1 to 1 to 1 (1 tweeter, 1 mid and 1 subwoofer) are way out of my range!

I will keep listening... I have yet to find another high end dealer that carries any of the decent polk, KEF or other brand "audiophile" models.

 

[mtbound10]

What are you using for a preamp? If your pre has an equalizer, you might be able to adjust it to bring out more of the midrange that you're looking for. Make sure you save your current settings before you start though. You might find that your current settings are bass heavy. I'm guessing you have bookshelves currently? Another option is to set the bass output to just the sub and maybe lower the volume. I think you may hear more mids that way.

I am using a Yamaha 863 for reciever/amplifier. Which brings up another issue... will my 8/6 ohm RX-V863 reciever be able to handle the 4 ohm rated M80 Axiom speaker?

 

[fredk]

Yamaha is hit and miss for handling 4 Ohm loads. I have not heard anything either way on the 863.