Paradigm Signature S8's

[Davemcc]

There seems to be a fair number of S8 owners here defending the model. Open one up and snap some pics of the internal cabinet construction. Seriously, I have searched for any pics or mention online about how the cabinet is actually constructed. Short of this IMS feature, I've been unable to find any mention of the acoustic engineering designed into the cabinet. If the S8 faithful want to win over the skeptics, open them up and show us the internal bracing.

 

[haraldo]

There seems to be a fair number of S8 owners here defending the model. Open one up and snap some pics of the internal cabinet construction. Seriously, I have searched for any pics or mention online about how the cabinet is actually constructed. Short of this IMS feature, I've been unable to find any mention of the acoustic engineering designed into the cabinet. If the S8 faithful want to win over the skeptics, open them up and show us the internal bracing.

I would be skeptical, if they don't even want to show schematics of the internals

 

[syd123]

There seems to be a fair number of S8 owners here defending the model. Open one up and snap some pics of the internal cabinet construction. Seriously, I have searched for any pics or mention online about how the cabinet is actually constructed. Short of this IMS feature, I've been unable to find any mention of the acoustic engineering designed into the cabinet. If the S8 faithful want to win over the skeptics, open them up and show us the internal bracing.

Actually, I think the only S8 owner whose speaking up on this issue is me The others seem to have more sense than I.

Why should an owner feel the onus to disassemble their speaker? The only reason that I continue to go on and on about this is because I'm quite bothered that Chris would presume the S8's - and the many other floor-standing speakers he impugned without mentioning them directly - have problems with resonances simply because their designers do not share his particular view on what constitutes and audible resonance and how best to address it. The thread caught my eye b/c it mentioned the speakers that I happen to own but I'd feel this way no matter which brand he disparaged in this manner.

Chris cites his use of double-blind testing and use of measurements as evidence of an impartial, science-based approach to speaker design. Well, take a look at Paradigms website and read the fairly detailed explanations of their approach to speaker design, use of the NRC in Canada, development of their own anechoic chamber, use of DBT, and you'll see that they also take a very engineering approach to designing speakers. They are not like the many "two guys in a garage" outfits or the the smaller companies who have more to say about their furniture grade finishes than the scientific rationale for their designs.

Remember, of the many glowing reviews of the Paradigm S8's - both the v.1 and v.2 w/ beryllium tweeter - not ONE (that I've read anyway) has noted ANY problems with resonances. Yet Chris has presumed them to have them simply b/c he's come to expect this from speaker mfgs.

I'm a little surprised that others aren't also challenging him on his sweeping generalizations.

 

[haraldo]

There seems to be a fair number of S8 owners here defending the model. Open one up and snap some pics of the internal cabinet construction. Seriously, I have searched for any pics or mention online about how the cabinet is actually constructed. Short of this IMS feature, I've been unable to find any mention of the acoustic engineering designed into the cabinet. If the S8 faithful want to win over the skeptics, open them up and show us the internal bracing.

Actually, I think the only S8 owner whose speaking up on this issue is me The others seem to have more sense than I.

Why should an owner feel the onus to disassemble their speaker? The only reason that I continue to go on and on about this is because I'm quite bothered that Chris would presume the S8's - and the many other floor-standing speakers he impugned without mentioning them directly - have problems with resonances simply because their designers do not share his particular view on what constitutes and audible resonance and how best to address it. The thread caught my eye b/c it mentioned the speakers that I happen to own but I'd feel this way no matter which brand he disparaged in this manner.

Chris cites his use of double-blind testing and use of measurements as evidence of an impartial, science-based approach to speaker design. Well, take a look at Paradigms website and read the fairly detailed explanations of their approach to speaker design, use of the NRC in Canada, development of their own anechoic chamber, use of DBT, and you'll see that they also take a very engineering approach to designing speakers. They are not like the many "two guys in a garage" outfits or the the smaller companies who have more to say about their furniture grade finishes than the scientific rationale for their designs.

Remember, of the many glowing reviews of the Paradigm S8's - both the v.1 and v.2 w/ beryllium tweeter - not ONE (that I've read anyway) has noted ANY problems with resonances. Yet Chris has presumed them to have them simply b/c he's come to expect this from speaker mfgs.

I'm a little surprised that others aren't also challenging him on his sweeping generalizations.

Oh if you seen the bleeding disagreements I've had in the past with WmAx... I will never agree with his opinions on loudspeakers..... but that's my right..... And yes I do believe some people here ignores important properties of speaker design, because it, for some reason, doesn't match what has been scientifically proven by AES.

 

[Davemcc]

The only reason that I continue to go on and on about this is because I'm quite bothered that Chris would presume the S8's - and the many other floor-standing speakers he impugned without mentioning them directly - have problems with resonances simply because their designers do not share his particular view on what constitutes and audible resonance and how best to address it.

I keep visiting this thread and searching for some evidence to suggest that the cabinet is as well constructed as you would suggest. Lacking any info from Paradigm directly or any other available source, I would have to go back to my local shop and and ask them to disassemble their floor model S8. I'm quite sure that they would be unwilling to do that since I've already expressed to them my underwhelming experience during a couple of auditions.

I've expressed before in this thread and others that I could only categorize what I was hearing as resonance, for lack of a better word. I'll explain why I chose that word for my own experience with the S8. I literally grew up in a piano store. As a teenager, I helped rebuild pianos and the sound of the S8 reminded me very much of the tone one might hear from a piano with a cracked or damaged soundboard, causing some unwanted resonance that needs to be repaired. I'm glad you love your speakers, but to my ear the S8's did not present a realistic or natural sound reproduction.

I would like to see a resolution to this issue almost as a point of curiosity, to see if there is anything physical to cause my listening impressions. I use bookshelf speakers and have primarily concentrated on bookshelf speakers in my auditions. In my auditions of mid to high end bookshelf speakers, I have never experienced such a sound as what I heard in the S8 which may be why it stood out so glaringly in my experience with the S8. High end bookshelves generally lack resonance due to the smaller cabinet panels and relative ease and low expense of building a suitably braced cabinet.

On top of that, I've found that Chris' suggestions are rarely, if ever, wrong. Because Chris' part in this thread reinforces my previously held experience, I tend to fall in line with Chris on this issue as well.

 

[Mika75]

Open one up and snap some pics of the internal cabinet construction.

I've removed my drivers a few times just out of curiosity, inspecting the measures taken to reduce cabinet resonance (and to see why they are soo damn heavy!) so I agree with this request, even though it wont give us technical data, but it will be an insight to what lengths Paradigm has gone to..

 

[Warpdrv]

Wow you guys.... seriously...

Either produce measurements for or against your supporting theories, or just drop it....

I love the Sigs.... I think they sound great to my ears....

Are they worth paying retail for in my opinion... Not sure... In this economy probably not... But then again I really don't pay retail for anything. I have been offered a price on them that would sway me towards buying them in the near future.

Am I going to worry about cabinet resonances on speakers I have spent time with and love.... doubt it...

Am I going to sit and argue with someone on the internet that I don't really know, much less give a P00 about whether or not they agree with my thoughts on a speaker I truly love and admire.... I highly doubt it...

Relax People.... not worth your energy.... really...

group hug...

 

[TheFactor]

My Studios dont have any of the above mentioned issues I cant see how there top of the line sigs would either

 

[syd123]

I keep visiting this thread and searching for some evidence to suggest that the cabinet is as well constructed as you would suggest.

Frankly, I don't think the burden of proof is on me. .. I am not that concerned with defending these speakers specifically. My gripe is with Chris's condemnation of floor-standers in general.

I've expressed before in this thread and others that I could only categorize what I was hearing as resonance, for lack of a better word. I'll explain why I chose that word for my own experience with the S8. I literally grew up in a piano store. As a teenager, I helped rebuild pianos and the sound of the S8 reminded me very much of the tone one might hear from a piano with a cracked or damaged soundboard, causing some unwanted resonance that needs to be repaired. I'm glad you love your speakers, but to my ear the S8's did not present a realistic or natural sound reproduction.

I would like to see a resolution to this issue almost as a point of curiosity, to see if there is anything physical to cause my listening impressions. I use bookshelf speakers and have primarily concentrated on bookshelf speakers in my auditions. In my auditions of mid to high end bookshelf speakers, I have never experienced such a sound as what I heard in the S8 which may be why it stood out so glaringly in my experience with the S8. High end bookshelves generally lack resonance due to the smaller cabinet panels and relative ease and low expense of building a suitably braced cabinet.

What sort of resolution would satisfy you?? Maybe you heard a bad pair. Or perhaps what you think was a resonance emanating from the speaker was in fact coming from something else (perhaps another speaker in the room. I was told once that ideally no other speakers should be in the room). ..Who knows. Do you recall the song?? Go listen to another pair and if you hear the same thing then case closed.

As for me, I can tell you that as someone with excellent measured hearing, a life-time of music fixation and years spent around live music I have NOT heard any resonances from the cabinet. .. And I've listened to all types of music from Bill Evans to Oscar Peterson to Bjork to Randy Newman to Gorillaz.

As for Chris's expertise. ..There are experts everywhere and they all have their own set of biases and predjudices - nothing unusual about that. It's noteworthy that the various experts who have reviewed the S8's have said glowing things (and have measured them to be flat flat flat) and none have observed any cabinet resonances. Chris, who has NOT heard them or measured them nonetheless advised against purchasing them because of "presumed" problems with their cabinets. People reading this thread will need to come to their own conclusions about which of the two seems more believable - the people who have listened to these and measured them, or a poster on audioholics who has never listened to them but condemns them anyway.

 

[TheFactor]

I keep visiting this thread and searching for some evidence to suggest that the cabinet is as well constructed as you would suggest.

Frankly, I don't think the burden of proof is on me. .. I am not that concerned with defending these speakers specifically. My gripe is with Chris's condemnation of floor-standers in general.

I've expressed before in this thread and others that I could only categorize what I was hearing as resonance, for lack of a better word. I'll explain why I chose that word for my own experience with the S8. I literally grew up in a piano store. As a teenager, I helped rebuild pianos and the sound of the S8 reminded me very much of the tone one might hear from a piano with a cracked or damaged soundboard, causing some unwanted resonance that needs to be repaired. I'm glad you love your speakers, but to my ear the S8's did not present a realistic or natural sound reproduction.

I would like to see a resolution to this issue almost as a point of curiosity, to see if there is anything physical to cause my listening impressions. I use bookshelf speakers and have primarily concentrated on bookshelf speakers in my auditions. In my auditions of mid to high end bookshelf speakers, I have never experienced such a sound as what I heard in the S8 which may be why it stood out so glaringly in my experience with the S8. High end bookshelves generally lack resonance due to the smaller cabinet panels and relative ease and low expense of building a suitably braced cabinet.

What sort of resolution would satisfy you?? Maybe you heard a bad pair. Or perhaps what you think was a resonance emanating from the speaker was in fact coming from something else (perhaps another speaker in the room. I was told once that ideally no other speakers should be in the room). ..Who knows. Do you recall the song?? Go listen to another pair and if you hear the same thing then case closed.

As for me, I can tell you that as someone with excellent measured hearing, a life-time of music fixation and years spent around live music I have NOT heard any resonances from the cabinet. .. And I've listened to all types of music from Bill Evans to Oscar Peterson to Bjork to Randy Newman to Gorillaz.

As for Chris's expertise. ..There are experts everywhere and they all have their own set of biases and predjudices - nothing unusual about that. It's noteworthy that the various experts who have reviewed the S8's have said glowing things (and have measured them to be flat flat flat) and none have observed any cabinet resonances. Chris, who has NOT heard them or measured them nonetheless advised against purchasing them because of "presumed" problems with their cabinets. People reading this thread will need to come to their own conclusions about which of the two seems more believable - the people who have listened to these and measured them, or a poster on audioholics who has never listened to them but condemns them anyway.

Well said and as they say you hit the nail wright on the head!!!

 

[Davemcc]

Frankly, I don't think the burden of proof is on me.

Not at all. Please don't misunderstand my interest in this thread. It is more from academic curiosity to maybe try and explain what I heard in the demo room. Perhaps if I could see what makes these so great in other people opinion, I could go back and give them a fresh listen with new ears. Barring any new info by Paradigm or others on the cabinet construction, I guess I'll simply have to stick with my initial assessment from my own listening.

What sort of resolution would satisfy you??

Honestly, I have no requirements that need to be satisfied. If this remains an enduring mystery to me, that's OK too. It may simply be a matter of preference. I listen primarily bookshelf speakers, as I mentioned, and I have a hard time finding floorstanders that I like. The S8 may just be grouped in with others that share similar characteristics by their design.

Besides, the only person a speaker needs to please is it's owner and there are several happy S8 owners here. Mission accomplished.

 

[Likecoiledsteel]

The S8 was a very nice speaker when I auditioned them. However, I felt the Sonus Faber Cremona bested them in musicality and smoothness. Sound is too subjective to rely on other's ears. Find what you like and go for it.
Steel

 

[RacineBoxer]

On top of that, I've found that Chris' suggestions are rarely, if ever, wrong. Because Chris' part in this thread reinforces my previously held experience, I tend to fall in line with Chris on this issue as well.

So in other words you are in the process of selling those dynaudio's and picking up some B&W's? Since, according to him, the dynaudio's are surely inferior at the same price point.

 

[Alex2507]

So in other words you are in the process of selling those dynaudio's and picking up some B&W's? Since, according to him, the dynaudio's are surely inferior at the same price point.

Where does he mention the price point of the Dynaudio's?

 

[codexp3]

From Paradigm:

It’s the attention to (or more correctly, the obsession with) details that separates the very best high-end speaker designs from the rest. Take, as an example, our IMS/SHOCK-MOUNT butyl-rubber driver fastening system. Developed in response to the nemesis of all speaker designers – cabinet resonances and vibrations – our Isolation Mounting System (IMS) is simply another step on the road to audio perfection. Critically placed isolation inserts and gaskets actually decouple drivers from the speaker enclosure itself. This “baffleless” technology reduces driver/enclosure interactions and their associated resonances to inaudible levels. In Signature speakers the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated.

 

[RacineBoxer]

Where does he mention the price point of the Dynaudio's?

Well the search function came through for me, I was merely guessing. Just do an advanced search and with his username, type in different speaker manufacturer's, and you'll see outside of B&W, Behringer & Harman/Infinity/Toole they all suck. Based on never hearing them but reading some research of course.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323973&highlight=dynaudio#post323973

 

[syd123]

From Paradigm:

It’s the attention to (or more correctly, the obsession with) details that separates the very best high-end speaker designs from the rest. Take, as an example, our IMS/SHOCK-MOUNT butyl-rubber driver fastening system. Developed in response to the nemesis of all speaker designers – cabinet resonances and vibrations – our Isolation Mounting System (IMS) is simply another step on the road to audio perfection. Critically placed isolation inserts and gaskets actually decouple drivers from the speaker enclosure itself. This “baffleless” technology reduces driver/enclosure interactions and their associated resonances to inaudible levels. In Signature speakers the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated.

I somewhat suspect that this will not meet Chris's approval. ..Hat's off to Paradigm, however, if this indeed works (which it appears to me that it does). This is a more elegant way of reducing resonances without having to build a 250lb cabinet which is what Chris seems to imply is necessary. ..As it is the S8's weighs a robust 100lbs

 

[syd123]

Well the search function came through for me, I was merely guessing. Just do an advanced search and with his username, type in different speaker manufacturer's, and you'll see outside of B&W, Behringer & Harman/Infinity/Toole they all suck. Based on never hearing them but reading some research of course.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323973&highlight=dynaudio#post323973

good grief. I had no idea that Chris's views on this subject were so entrenched.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I don't remember writing that.

From Paradigm:

It’s the attention to (or more correctly, the obsession with) details that separates the very best high-end speaker designs from the rest. Take, as an example, our IMS/SHOCK-MOUNT butyl-rubber driver fastening system. Developed in response to the nemesis of all speaker designers – cabinet resonances and vibrations – our Isolation Mounting System (IMS) is simply another step on the road to audio perfection. Critically placed isolation inserts and gaskets actually decouple drivers from the speaker enclosure itself. This “baffleless” technology reduces driver/enclosure interactions and their associated resonances to inaudible levels. In Signature speakers the problem of enclosure resonances is not simply reduced, it is essentially eliminated.

 

[Matt34]

I googled Paradigm SIgnature S8 to try and find an exploded 3D view so I could put this thread to rest but alas, the internet denied my victory.

RacineBoxer,

Lets stay on the topic.