Outlaw Ultra-X13 vs PSA V1801?

[Яusty]

I arrived here researching Polk something-or-other a couple weeks ago. Then I read subwoofer threads to about 16 months back. It's all your fault, hah.

For reference, I have a pair of Newforms running up front, looks like 2x7" [not 5.5"!] per cabinet + 3-segment ribbon tweeters, actively bi-amped. Looking for a single sub (keeping it simple / weight limitation).

So both subs are just over 100 lbs with roughly similar dimensions, and a $100 delta. My usage is casual, and either would be overkill. Having said that, are there any key differences between these two subs beyond down vs front firing? How would the long excursion 13" stack up against the 18"? There is so little info to go on, or I don't know how to interpret what I've searched up. Outlaw appears to be an interesting unique design, and the PSA appears to be 18" overkill. You can see my criteria is haphazard and trivial. ("What can I wedge in here that will be enjoyable for several years?") However, if the 13" sounds better / digs with lower response, but isn't as loud, that may be my preference. Or will the 18" simply obliterate 13" no matter which way it's sliced?

I didn't see any Rythmik / SVS / JTR / Mono / RSL products that caught my interest after reading in detail about each. Not sure about HSU, maybe the 15" VTF-3 MK5 HP with one port blocked.

Which one "digs", even if not necessarily the loudest?

 

[shadyJ]

I am guessing the Outlaw will dig deeper, since it can be tuned to 15 Hz. If you run it in the THX mode, that shifts the tuning up to the mid 20s, but it makes it one of the most linear subs around. The PSA subs will certainly have more output from 30 Hz on up, but it doesn't look to be tuned as low. There are reports of the PSA subs being underported, which can cause significant chuffing in deep frequencies, even at low volumes. There were some enthusiasts who took some subs for outside testing earlier this year, and they were surprised at how easily the ports could overload on the V1801 (read the bottom of this page and onward). That is not surprising given the enclosure and port size vs the woofer. It looks to me like the Outlaw is a more balanced system, and if you are willing to give up midbass output for a more well-rounded system, it's a clear choice.

 

[Яusty]

Thanks! I was wondering if the V1801 cabinet and port were effectively too small for an 18. I'll go reread about the 13" unit again before ordering.

Edit: I have a 10mm floating (or suspended) floor, am rethinking down-firing.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks! I was wondering if the V1801 cabinet and port were effectively too small for an 18. I'll go reread about the 13" unit again before ordering.

Edit: I have a 10mm floating (or suspended) floor, am rethinking down-firing.

I wouldn't worry about down-firing so much as overall cabinet vibration. You will want something that has an inert cabinet. The outlaw is built pretty well in this regard. If the floor is not carpeted, you will want something like hardwood protector pads like these guys to damp the contact from the feet. SVS' soundpath isolation feet would be good here too.

 

[Яusty]

I wouldn't worry about down-firing so much as overall cabinet vibration. You will want something that has an inert cabinet. The outlaw is built pretty well in this regard. If the floor is not carpeted, you will want something like hardwood protector pads like these guys to damp the contact from the feet. SVS' soundpath isolation feet would be good here too.

Thanks, one way or another, I could cobble together an isolation platform. I'm just a little put off by the price vs driver size, and the down firing (ie, two niggles). To be clear, if it was front-firing then I think this would be a done deal, but if it was just cheaper I'd still be hemming and hawing.

What would you say about the front-firing FV15HP versus the Ultra-X13? The Rythmik is a little heavier, 1" wider, trades a little height for depth, $320 cheaper, and front-firing. It's got a bigger driver, and a single band parametric EQ. The review nearly 7 years old at this point, don't know if anything has changed. I can't interpret the review data nearly as well as the newer Outlaw review.

 

[shadyJ]

I would say the FV15HP and Ultra-X13 are somewhat comparable. The FV15HP has more headroom, but it also hits higher distortion for that extra headroom. Here is an extensive set of measurements for the FV15HP. Rythmik came out with an improved 15" driver, the DS1520, that they might be using in the FV15HP now. You would have to ask them. I would expect the FV15HP to be a tad more powerful than the Ultra-X13. I think you would be happy with either. If you aren't pushing them to the edge, my guess is they will sound pretty much alike, except for the differences in extension.

 

[Яusty]

I would say the FV15HP and Ultra-X13 are somewhat comparable. The FV15HP has more headroom, but it also hits higher distortion for that extra headroom. Here is an extensive set of measurements for the FV15HP. Rythmik came out with an improved 15" driver, the DS1520, that they might be using in the FV15HP now. You would have to ask them. I would expect the FV15HP to be a tad more powerful than the Ultra-X13. I think you would be happy with either. If you aren't pushing them to the edge, my guess is they will sound pretty much alike, except for the differences in extension.

It appears that the FV15HP has indeed grown by 12 pounds due to an updated driver and updated plate amp.

Okay pet peeve, look at the picture from Outlaw's site, it's a disingenuous shot. The rear panel with all the controls is openly facing the couch, not the wall: http://www.outlawaudio.com/images/X13_LivingRoom.jpg Someone spending $1658 otd on 13" subwoofer furniture is likely not going to place it like that.

Wrt FV15HP, if one selects the XLR model, is the PEQ functionality lost? My equipment has XLR sub output. Or can I safely use XLR to RCA cable?

Edit: I just realized I have myself a connectivity / crossover issue ... I'll have to think about this. I have a rack-mount 4-channel amp that drives the bi-amped speakers. I'm not sure where to grab the sub output that'll change with volume control. I was hoping to limit LF going to main speakers.

 

[KEW]

What are you using for a receiver/pre-amp and amplification?
Is this a stereo system?

 

[Яusty]

What are you using for a receiver/pre-amp and amplification?
Is this a stereo system?

HTPC -> optical to kill video card hum + small dac back to electrical -> eq/dsp/xover -> 4ch iNuke 6000 -> bi-amped speakers

I'm sure it's a mess. It was built up over time for fun.

 

[shadyJ]

You will need something that can act as a crossover. MiniDSP can do this and also allows you to equalize. Hsu has a simple high pass filter if you want to take care of equalization at another stage.

My advice with the Rythmik is to use the LEF input. Its other inputs actually roll off the upper frequency extension a bit too much.

 

[Яusty]

... crossover ...

Swapped for a 3-way crossover w/sub summing, and it seems to work great with my bi-amped speakers + an old 10" sub.

So I just threw down for a Hsu VTF-3 MK5, as it seemed like the reasonable choice for my wishes: 15" front-fire for $953 (incl ca tax), 85 lbs, and acceptable cabinet sizing. Whatever performance it gives, it'll be fine.

I'm sure the Ultra-X13 is top notch hardware, but the reality is that Outlaw's price point will be lost on my usage. Noting here for others that the $800 Monolith 12" looks to be quite an attractive alternative to the Ultra-X13.

 

[shadyJ]

Swapped for a 3-way crossover w/sub summing, and it seems to work great with my bi-amped speakers + an old 10" sub.

So I just threw down for a Hsu VTF-3 MK5, as it seemed like the reasonable choice for my wishes: 15" front-fire for $953 (incl ca tax), 85 lbs, and acceptable cabinet sizing. Whatever performance it gives, it'll be fine.

I'm sure the Ultra-X13 is top notch hardware, but the reality is that Outlaw's price point will be lost on my usage. Noting here for others that the $800 Monolith 12" looks to be quite an attractive alternative to the Ultra-X13.

VTF-3 mk5, great sub for the money. Let us know how you like it.

 

[Яusty]

VTF-3 mk5, great sub for the money. Let us know how you like it.

Hahaha, it's awesome.

Are there other subs that have a 30 second boot-up time like the Outlaw Ultra-X13? One minute to power cycle off and on. That was another turn-off. I hate delays on equipment.

 

[shadyJ]

Hahaha, it's awesome.

Are there other subs that have a 30 second boot-up time like the Outlaw Ultra-X13? One minute to power cycle off and on. That was another turn-off. I hate delays on equipment.

The delay for a sub doesn't matter because its something you leaved plugged in all the time. It will turn itself on or off as needed after that, with no delay.

 

[Яusty]

...

I'd buy a 2nd VTF-3 mk5 except that I'm TRYING to keep it simple, lol. *Scopes out 2 locations for additional sub.*

So about the weight, 86 lbs isn't that bad. It's the SIZE of the sub while trying to get a grip on it to move it. There's already a 1.5" protrusion from the rear of the sub for the amp heatsink. They should throw a grip handle back there, then grip + port would make it easy to grab.

 

[shadyJ]

I'd buy a 2nd VTF-3 mk5 except that I'm TRYING to keep it simple, lol. *Scopes out 2 locations for additional sub.*

So about the weight, 86 lbs isn't that bad. It's the SIZE of the sub while trying to get a grip on it to move it. There's already a 1.5" protrusion from the rear of the sub for the amp heatsink. They should throw a grip handle back there, then grip + port would make it easy to grab.

Of the really beastly subs, that is probably the easiest out there to handle. By really beastly I mean subs that have good extension and also midbass output well over 115 dB. It really is a different class of sub and they start for around $1k. I have had to deal with far less physically manageable subs than the VTF-3 mk5.

 

[Яusty]

Of the really beastly subs, that is probably the easiest out there to handle. By really beastly I mean subs that have good extension and also midbass output well over 115 dB. It really is a different class of sub and they start for around $1k. I have had to deal with far less physically manageable subs than the VTF-3 mk5.

No other way about it, 2 subs sound better than one. Even if it's hard to localize a single sub, there's something different about one vs two, the difference is there. Right, so I officially have extra sub headroom now, hah. Wish I had room for VTF-15H models, but these are already pushing boundaries. 15s are killing it, maybe I should have gotten 12s, too late now.

 

[Blake NoLast]

In this price range I'd go with either the Outlaw Ultra X-13 or the Monolith THX 15" sub from Monoprice. Both will dig VERY deep with really low distortion.