Outlaw ICBM and SACD - any advice?

[edwelly]

I have some questions about the Outlaw ICBM and my setup. I have a Sony DVP-900v and a Sony STR-DA4ES. The DVD/SACD player use digital and 5.1 ICs to the receiver. I have commented on how unimpressed I have been with SACD sound vs DVD-A and 2CH sound. The ICMB has been suggested and thus far, I do like what I have read about it. My questions are:
1. does anybody use one of these? If so, your thoughts on it?
2. Will I only get benefit when listening to SACDs?
3. What about movies in Dolby Digital? Dos this help or will I still be using my Digital output?

Thanks!!!

 

[BGLeduc]

I have used an ICBM in my MC rig when the BM in the player (a Pio 45a at the time) was below par. My current palyer (a Denon 3910) has good BM (plus time alignment) thus the ICBM is retired to my 2CH rig.

Having said that, there ar every few players out there was proper, flexible BM, so an ICBM is almost always an improvement.

Do you know anything about the BM in your existing player? Does it even work with SACD? Are the crossovers appropriate for your loudspeakers? You mention DVD-A. How are you playing it? Surely your Sony does not do DVD-A.

As for DD, you would normally be sending that to the AVR via the digital connection, thus using BM in the AVR. I would not expect any improvement there, unless the crossovers in the AVR are inflexible and not of an appropriate setting for your loudspeakers.

In any event, it was a huge improvement over the sub standard BM in my Pio. Well worth the $200 it cost for a B Stock unit. You will be hard pressed to find anyone that has one that is not 100% pleased.

Brian

 

[edwelly]

QUOTE: Do you know anything about the BM in your existing player?
Yes. well, sorta. I can set the speakers to Large or Small. That's about it. I can tell a difference in large and small.

QUOTE: Surely your Sony does not do DVD-A
I thought it does. I could be wrong but my audio DVD of Lyle Lovett plays on it and not in a regular CD player. There is no video. I may have the terminology wrong.

So from what I gather, unless I am listening to an SACD, I am not going to really use this device. Would this be correct? THANKS!

 

[BGLeduc]

Well, I would say the greatest benefit would be for SACD, and again, that woul depend on whether or not the Sony does any BM when playing SACDs, and how well its does it. Some machines that have 5.1 outputs have BM, but it may NOT apply to all formats. I don't know your machine, so I could not guess if it does BM for SACD.

I think what the Sony is doing when playing your DVD-A's is playing the Dolby Digital section. DVD-A is the mortal enemy of SACD, and since Sony is the co-inventer of SACD, there are no Sony machines to date that will play the DVD-A tracks of a DVD-A disc.

Most (all?) DVD-A discs have a Dolby Digital track that will allow them to be played on DVD-V machines. Dollars to donuts that is what you are hearing.

In fact, I will go a step further. If you are playing your DVD-A discs, select the digital input on the AVR (same as you would if you were playing a movie). If you are getting DD 5.1 sound, than the Sony player is reading the DVD-V section of your DVD-A discs.

And if all that is giving you a headache(!), you are not alone. The whole DVD-A vs. SACD thing gives everyone a headache! The concept of "just press play" never occurred to the inventirs of DVD-A or SACD.

I have had a universal machine (SACD, DVD-A, DVD-V, CD) for several years, and there are some stunning titles available in both hi-rez formats, but the powers that be make you jump through so many hoops to hear it the way it should be heard, that the fact that both formats are dying on the vine should not be a surprise to anyone.

Brian

 

[j_garcia]

There are definitely no Sony players that will play the hires DVD-A tracks on a DVD-A disc. As was mentioned, almost all DVD-A discs also include a DD or DTS track that is compatible with all DVD players, but that is not the same as the hires DVD-A tracks.

I know a number of people using the ICBM and all seem to be happy with it.

 

[bruceh]

ICBM advantages

I bought a Pioneer DV563A a couple of years ago when it was one of the cheapest universals on the market ($145). The ICBM was an absolute necessity for that unit, because without you are stuck with a single crossover frequency for all speakers. Adding this unit allowed me to individually set the crossovers for front/back, center, surrounds and subwoofer. Recordings that had seemed very muddy, with a poorly defined soundstage showed their true sparkle. Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" on DVD-Audio benefited tremendously. I think this unit is probably an improvement in bass management for most inexpensive universal players. If your speakers all have the same bass handling capabilities ( usually defined by the +/- 3 db spec), then you might find a single crossover frequency adequate, but mine are all different.

 

[edwelly]

ok - so my Sony is playing the DTS version of the CD. Sorry abotu that. But I still do have a clear cut answer to my question. Is the only benift for my current setup SACD if I get the ICBM?? Sorry for being so dense - I am just trying to make sure I am not spending $250 for the ICBM and another $50 in ICs just for 2 SACDs.
I fully understand how the ICBM works vs letting my DVD and or receiver make those changes. My reciever has adjustable points so it works fine for most everything.
Now, how does a DVD-A differ from a DTS version?

Thanks a LOT for all of your guys help on this. I REALLY appreciate it!!!

 

[jaxvon]

If I recall correctly, DTS is a different sampling rate than DVD-A. If you can float the cost for a little while, you might just want to buy it and try it out. Outlaw has a 30-day money back guarantee. The only thing you'll be out of if you return it is the return shipping. They'll reimburse the full cost of the unit and shipping.

Give them a call and they should be able to answer some questions.

Outlaw: 1-866-OUTLAWS

 

[edwelly]

If I recall correctly, DTS is a different sampling rate than DVD-A. If you can float the cost for a little while, you might just want to buy it and try it out. Outlaw has a 30-day money back guarantee. The only thing you'll be out of if you return it is the return shipping. They'll reimburse the full cost of the unit and shipping.

Give them a call and they should be able to answer some questions.

Outlaw: 1-866-OUTLAWS

Would you belive that is EXACTLY what I just did - I got a B-Stock unit for $199. I am going to givre this a try... Thanks again!!! I will update you guys with a review after I get it set up. thanks!!!

 

[BGLeduc]

DTS is a compressed, lossy format, meaning that some of the data is tossed when the music is coverted to DTS. Its analagous to MP3.

DVD-A (in 5.1) is also a compression scheme, but it is lossless, meaning that every bit of the original music is preserved. All things being equal, a 5.1 DVD-A mix should be superior to a DTS mix. That said, DTS (and DD) can sound quite good, but the DVD-A should sound even better.

Back to the question at hand.

If the Sony does NOT do BM on SACD, then the ICBM is easy to recommend.

If the Sony does BM, but it is substandard, then the ICBM is easy to recommend.

But, if the Sony does do a decent job with BM, than you may not notice a big difference, so use the $$$ to buy some SACD's while you still can.

There may or may not be any mention in the manual as to whether or not the Sony does BM on SACD (manufacturers don't like to brag when they can't do something).

I seem to recall that most Sony SACD player reviews I have read seem to suggest that Sony uses a 100 or 120 hertz crossover. That may be workable with your loudspeakers. Without actual SACDtest tones, I am not sure the best way to test this.

Maybe play a SACD that is known to have good bass, but with the sub disconnected. Play the track with the speakers set so that the front L/R are large and the sub is Set to No. Assuming your mains are not mini-monitors, you should have decent bass in that scenario.

Then set the L/R to small and set the Sub to Yes (but leave the sub disconnected). Is there a noticeble difference in bass? Did it drop off of the map? If so, then at the very least we can conclude that the Sony does BM on SACD. Plug the sub back in, and play the track one more time. Your low end should be back.

But, If there is no difference between test 1 and 2, then it probably does not do BM for SACD, and your next step is a call to 1-800-Outlaw.

Brian

 

[j_garcia]

I seem to recall that most Sony SACD player reviews I have read seem to suggest that Sony uses a 100 or 120 hertz crossover. That may be workable with your loudspeakers. Without actual SACDtest tones, I am not sure the best way to test this.

I think the DVD boxes are different from the CD/SACD players, because my 222ES has no adjustment for the x-over point, just small or large and the ability to use the sub even with the speakers set to large. What it does have though, which took a bit of time to really figure out (becasue there is no video secton on board so no OSD ilke DVD models), is a "fader" like adjustment that allows me to dial in the blend between the sub and the mains in terms of volume quite precisely, which I found to be extremely useful. When I set up my friend's 725p, it did not have any such adjustment in the menu system. My receiver also allows independent adjustment of the levels of the multichannel input so I always used that to set the levels and left the 222 alone. With the 2900, I needed to make cuts in the 2900 and still tweak the receiver's levels to get everything blended right, so I still can't quite justify an ICBM myself, but with a receiver that does not allow this adjustment, an ICBM is definitely what I'd be looking at.

 

[edwelly]

with a receiver that does not allow this adjustment, an ICBM is definitely what I'd be looking at.

When using SACD, I cannot take advantage of my receivers BM can I? My receiver has the ability to make adjustments to the crossover points but the DVD/SACD player only has Large, Small and None - therefore making the ICMB a needed component. Am I correct in this thought?

 

[BGLeduc]

Yes.

Most AVR's and pre/pros do not perfrom BM or distance compensation on the 5.1 MC analog inputs. There are a few that do, but they are clearly in the minority.

When you get into iLINK and DenonLINK, the game changes, but for gear w/o such connections, hi-rez formats demand that you either have a player with good BM, or an ICBM.

Brian

 

[edwelly]

Yes.

Most AVR's and pre/pros do not perfrom BM or distance compensation on the 5.1 MC analog inputs. There are a few that do, but they are clearly in the minority.

Brian

I have a Sony DA4ES and I have ability to change the crossover settings for front, rear, sub, center and rear surrounds each from 40hz to 200 Hz in 10 Hz steps. I eve have a built-in parametric EQ but I am not messing around with that. It's a shame I can't use the DVDs 5.1 inputs and use the AVR BM - there would be no need for a ICBM...

 

[BGLeduc]

It's a shame I can't use the DVDs 5.1 inputs and use the AVR BM - there would be no need for a ICBM...

Outlaw has sold a boat load of these for that exact reason. Don't feel singled out with your Sony. As mentioned, there are very few AVR's and pre/pro's that can do this.

I got my Pioneer 45a in the fall of 2002. At the time, most universal players had NO bass management at all. Those that did have it either did it for one format but not the other, or had weird settings (crossover setting was different depending on the format). It was (and in many cases still is) mind boggling that something this fundamental would be so totally FUBAR.

I once offerred the opinion that Outlaw was sending payola to the bing A/V manufactureres to get them to purposely screw up their BM systems!

Brian