Outlaw....go for seperates or no ?

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>3dB;

I am sorry but I disagree with many of your points.  It has been a misconception for a long time now that Separates always guarantee better performance.  Until recently that may have been true, but it simply is not the case anymore.

Small high end companies simply don't have the R&amp;D expenditures, nor do they deal in the shear volumes, of the larger electronics vendors to design state of the art cost effective electronics.  Many of these companies simply offer an OEM processor so that they can promote their other products (IE. Speakers, Amplifiers, etc).

I spent several months with the Outlaw Clone Processor (aka Sherbour PT-7000):
PT-7000 Review

and found it was a very good processor in deed, but no match for many of todays A/V Receiver flagships, particularly the Denon AVR-5803.

Processors in the price range of these killer flagship receivers often lack the digital arcitecture for the reasons previously mentioned.

In my opinion, here is a prime example:

Sunfire Theater Grand III

As for SNR, it may be more important that you realize, especially when dealing with DVD-A and SACD.  We have learned this ourselves when comparing many similarly priced processors to that of the Denon AVR-5803 for example.  A well designed receiver today typically has a good 5-10dB lower noise floor via its analog inputs and usually better DAC performance than many of the less sophisticated pre/pros.

If you are in a very large room with inefficient speakers and desire more power than what flagship receivers have to offer, you could always add an external two channel or multi channel amp to the mix.  

We have found that receivers are evolving far more quickly than similar priced separates and the blanket statement that &quot;Separates are better than Receivers in the same price range...&quot; is no longer valid.

I have had people ask me in the past, &quot;Why don't receiver companies offer a processor version of their flagship without the amp section and reduce the price?&quot;  The answer is, removing the amp section will have little to no affect on retail price!  The reason being is the vendor will now produce a product catered to a smaller marketplace, thus the sales volume will decrease and the consumer will ultimately be paying the price.  In a sense, think of todays high end receivers as excellent processors with a free amp section thrown in.  

Is a receiver always the answer?  Certainly not.  However they have become an incredibly well integrated and value minded design that should not be overlooked, especially when faced off against similarly priced separates and tight on shelf space.
 

</font>

 

[3db]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

gene : <font color='#000000'>3dB;

I am sorry but I disagree with many of your points. &nbsp;It has been a misconception for a long time now that Separates always guarantee better performance. &nbsp;Until recently that may have been true, but it simply is not the case anymore.

Long time being a year or two? &nbsp;Because prior to the new 5803, I would maintain that the Outlaw combo &nbsp;kicked Denon's DACs

Small high end companies simply don't have the R&amp;D expenditures, nor do they deal in the shear volumes, of the larger electronics vendors to design state of the art cost effective electronics. &nbsp;Many of these companies simply offer an OEM processor so that they can promote their other products (IE. Speakers, Amplifiers, etc).

I'm assuming that you mean comparable priced pre/pros &nbsp;and receivers.
If not I would have to disagree with you on OEM dollars spent &nbsp;vs high quailty output products &nbsp;Alot of these companies, especially Yamaha (which &nbsp;I consider to be the true underdog for &nbsp; Audio snob appeal ) &nbsp;have many lines of business. I do not know how they structure that corporately and how they funnel a portion of their profit back into R&amp;D for audio purposes. It would be interesting to see &nbsp;what percentage of prfits gets allocated for R&amp;D dollars in small companies such as Bryston, Anthemm SymAudio &nbsp;etc &nbsp;as they are considered to be &nbsp;mid to high end?

I spent several months with the Outlaw Clone Processor (aka Sherbour PT-7000):
PT-7000 Review

and found it was a very good processor in deed, but no match for many of todays A/V Receiver flagships, particularly the Denon AVR-5803.

Processors in the price range of these killer flagship receivers often lack the digital arcitecture for the reasons previously mentioned.

Careful, You would pick the Denon over a Krell or a MacIntosh pre/pro for 4000+ dollars? &nbsp;

In my opinion, here is a prime example:

Sunfire Theater Grand III

As for SNR, it may be more important that you realize, especially when dealing with DVD-A and SACD. &nbsp;We have learned this ourselves when comparing many similarly priced processors to that of the Denon AVR-5803 for example. &nbsp;A well designed receiver today typically has a good 5-10dB lower noise floor via its analog inputs and usually better DAC performance than many of the less sophisticated pre/pros.

Ignoring theoretical limits... Can you hear that difference in a DBT ?

If you are in a very large room with inefficient speakers and desire more power than what flagship receivers have to offer, you could always add an external two channel or multi channel amp to the mix. &nbsp;

We have found that receivers are evolving far more quickly than similar priced separates and the blanket statement that &quot;Separates are better than Receivers in the same price range...&quot; is no longer valid.

I have had people ask me in the past, &quot;Why don't receiver companies offer a processor version of their flagship without the amp section and reduce the price?&quot; &nbsp;The answer is, removing the amp section will have little to no affect on retail price! &nbsp;The reason being is the vendor will now produce a product catered to a smaller marketplace, thus the sales volume will decrease and the consumer will ultimately be paying the price. &nbsp;In a sense, think of todays high end receivers as excellent processors with a free amp section thrown in. &nbsp;

Is a receiver always the answer? &nbsp;Certainly not. &nbsp;However they have become an incredibly well integrated and value minded design that should not be overlooked, especially when faced off against similarly priced separates and tight on shelf space.
&nbsp;

I will have to concede one point to you

&nbsp;in that today's Flagship monsters are of very high calibre and certainly have raiseed the bar in terms of performance. &nbsp;Lets see now if the seperates camp will pickup the challenge. &nbsp;

Just one more thing, Outlaw as dropped the price of their pre/pro by another 100..now rtailing for $799. &nbsp;

</font>

<font color='#000000'>3dB;

I am sorry but I disagree with many of your points. &nbsp;It has been a misconception for a long time now that Separates always guarantee better performance. &nbsp;Until recently that may have been true, but it simply is not the case anymore.

Long time being a year or two? &nbsp;Because prior to the new 5803, I would maintain that the Outlaw combo &nbsp;kicked Denon's DACs

Small high end companies simply don't have the R&amp;D expenditures, nor do they deal in the shear volumes, of the larger electronics vendors to design state of the art cost effective electronics. &nbsp;Many of these companies simply offer an OEM processor so that they can promote their other products (IE. Speakers, Amplifiers, etc).

I'm assuming that you mean comparable priced pre/pros &nbsp;and receivers.
If not I would have to disagree with you on OEM dollars spent &nbsp;vs high quailty output products &nbsp;Alot of these companies, especially Yamaha (which &nbsp;I consider to be the true underdog for &nbsp; Audio snob appeal ) &nbsp;have many lines of business. I do not know how they structure that corporately and how they funnel a portion of their profit back into R&amp;D for audio purposes. It would be interesting to see &nbsp;what percentage of prfits gets allocated for R&amp;D dollars in small companies such as Bryston, Anthemm SymAudio &nbsp;etc &nbsp;as they are considered to be &nbsp;mid to high end?

I spent several months with the Outlaw Clone Processor (aka Sherbour PT-7000):
PT-7000 Review

and found it was a very good processor in deed, but no match for many of todays A/V Receiver flagships, particularly the Denon AVR-5803.

Processors in the price range of these killer flagship receivers often lack the digital arcitecture for the reasons previously mentioned.

Careful, You would pick the Denon over a Krell or a MacIntosh pre/pro for 4000+ dollars? &nbsp;

In my opinion, here is a prime example:

Sunfire Theater Grand III

As for SNR, it may be more important that you realize, especially when dealing with DVD-A and SACD. &nbsp;We have learned this ourselves when comparing many similarly priced processors to that of the Denon AVR-5803 for example. &nbsp;A well designed receiver today typically has a good 5-10dB lower noise floor via its analog inputs and usually better DAC performance than many of the less sophisticated pre/pros.

Ignoring theoretical limits... Can you hear that difference in a DBT ?

If you are in a very large room with inefficient speakers and desire more power than what flagship receivers have to offer, you could always add an external two channel or multi channel amp to the mix. &nbsp;

We have found that receivers are evolving far more quickly than similar priced separates and the blanket statement that &quot;Separates are better than Receivers in the same price range...&quot; is no longer valid.

I have had people ask me in the past, &quot;Why don't receiver companies offer a processor version of their flagship without the amp section and reduce the price?&quot; &nbsp;The answer is, removing the amp section will have little to no affect on retail price! &nbsp;The reason being is the vendor will now produce a product catered to a smaller marketplace, thus the sales volume will decrease and the consumer will ultimately be paying the price. &nbsp;In a sense, think of todays high end receivers as excellent processors with a free amp section thrown in. &nbsp;

Is a receiver always the answer? &nbsp;Certainly not. &nbsp;However they have become an incredibly well integrated and value minded design that should not be overlooked, especially when faced off against similarly priced separates and tight on shelf space.
&nbsp;

I will have to concede one point to you

&nbsp;in that today's Flagship monsters are of very high calibre and certainly have raiseed the bar in terms of performance. &nbsp;Lets see now if the seperates camp will pickup the challenge. &nbsp;

Just one more thing, Outlaw as dropped the price of their pre/pro by another 100..now rtailing for $799. &nbsp;

</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Dunno bout others but as for Yamaha R&amp;D comes from their music division as well as their Pro Audio department. All the DSPs used in Yamaha receivers are from their musical instuments modified for HT.

Their speaker divison also was formed to cater to their musical instruments, while visiting Yamaha in Japan, I observed that most of the engineers working at Yamaha consumer audio were from their pro audio and musical instruments section and some of them were part time musicians themselves.

It is one of these co-relations Yamaha audio benefits from.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>3dB ;

Your responses are hard to follow. &nbsp;Note sure where yours begin and mine end. &nbsp;However, given the choice of Processors between the Krell Showcase for example and a Yamaha RX-Z9 or Denon AVR-5803, I choose the latter two. &nbsp;However that is my personal preference and I have that preference for a variety of reasons which I will not detail here. &nbsp;There are some very good pre/pros on the market today, but there are also many that are lacking. &nbsp;Choose the features which are important to you and pick your poisons based on that....</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<font color='#000080'>Basically, the competition is ramping up - and everyone has their opinions. But one thing almost everyone can agree on is that the field is being shaken up. The new line of receivers are providing higher technology for the price and most separates are playing catch-up.

But I view this similar to the ATI/nVidia PC video card situation, they seem to leap frog each other every two years - this produces better products for the consumer and keeps things competitive.

Let the competition begin - receivers have entered the foray and separates will probably be better because of it.</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>3db

You say.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I am saying is that the price that these receivers
command are in the same leagues as entry/mid level separates which will have
better performance and more flexability.</td></tr></table>

Some of the individual points you make are valid, but blanket statements like the one above simply don't hold true. It assumes that separates in general are the reference point for which all receivers must reach, this needs to be taken on a case by case basis. If you were to make a detailed feature list of the Outlaw or Sunfire and compare it to the 5803 or Z9, my guess is you would see more features missing on the separates side of the list.

From a performance perspective I have little doubt these receivers already equal or better the separates you have mentioned. SNR is not about hearing the noise, it's about being able to distinguish finer detail when the volume is turned up.

Also while a bigger percentage of these smaller companies profits may be going into R&amp;D, in pales in comparison when you consider the amount in real dollars spent. If you take a look at the technical descriptions of the new Z9 or Sony STRDA9000ES you will see that a great deal of critical components are custom in house ASICs. Developing these costs a lot of money and returns are usually gained on volume. So it's not just a matter od OEMing, some of the technology in these new receivers can not be had elsewhere period.

I would agree that these flagship receivers are a recent phenomenon. In fact the Z9 and STRDA9000ES are recent entries into the 5803 realm and hopefully this increased competition will drive pricing in this segment down even further.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Paul;

You have made some excellent comments in your last post. &nbsp;Perhaps points in this discussion need to be turned into an article. I would hate to lose this information in the archives of this forum.</font>

 

[3db]

<font color='#000000'>I think some of the major audio mags should do a number &nbsp;of tests, both listening and measurement wise, &nbsp;between entry and mid level seperates &nbsp;and flagship receivers to see how narrow the performance gap as become.

It would be an interesting read.</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,

Happy to help if I can. Will be glad to collaborate or contribute to something if you decide to kick it off. I think it should start with an outline.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>3dB;

Magazines such as Sound&amp;Vision already have and proven that $800 receivers such as the Denon AVR-2803 have about 10dB better SNR via the analog inputs, while also exhibiting better linearity and SNR for PCM, then the likes of many $3500 and up processors.  Check the reviews done by David Ranada. We just got some nice test gear from Sencore so we are hoping we can do some of this ourselves going forward.

Paul;
Over the course of the next couple of weeks, I will prepare some form of working outline to turn this debate into a constructive argument.  I welcome your inputs and everyone else contributing.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>I was just wondering, isnt the outlaw a class D amp whose only purpose is SPL and clarity isnt important to it.

Seems like it is for people to whom SPL is everything.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Yamahaluver,

It does seem these days that people are often concerned with brute power, not unlike sound reinforcement in pro audio, as opposed to low noise, high fidelity, well integrated audio.

I believe the Outlaw amp is Class G which starts out as a Class AB in lower power and switches during higher output using a diode and multi rail biasing scheme.  In contrast the Sherbourn amp we reviewed only switches biasing when the amp warms up.  We never had this happen since it ran cool all the time.  If one were to implement Class G, certainly the latter method is preferable.  However, in reality most users will never tax the power reserves of either amp to experience the switching over, and if it does happen, it is most likely momentary at best.

The reality is, most users simply don't need that much power.  High power amps should usually be reserved for those whose speakers demand it (IE Electrostats, low sensitivity and low impedance; &lt; 87dB SPL@1watt) in large listening rooms.  One should never trade power for noise which is often the case today when comparing many entry level separates to super receivers.


Here is a quick link on Class G:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/classg/g.htm

One of Outlaws amps that employs this listed here:
http://www.gspr.com/outlaw/200.html
However, be cautioned that the SNR is 100dB at full power, which translates down to about 76dB @ 1watt. &nbsp;Thats kinda low IMO and certainly not the epitome of high fidelity playback. &nbsp;In comparison, a well designed receiver for example is a good 10dB better.

However, if sheer power is what people are after, than it certainly may not be of concern.</font>

 

[3db]

<font color='#000000'>The specs for the Outlaw reads as &nbsp;listed below. I'm just curious on how you came up with your SNR at 1 watt. &nbsp;And the other question I have is this, wouldn't the noise floor increase at higher power levels because your driving more current thru those transistors, increase of thermal and Johnson noise?

Model 200 Technical Specifications

Power Output: 200 watts @ 8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, &lt;0.05% THD; 300 watts @ 4 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, &lt;0.05%

THD Signal to Noise: 112 dB &quot;A&quot; weighted

Input Impedance: &gt;10K Ohms

Gain: +27dB (1.7V sensitivity) for full output

Input Connectors: RCA Jack

Output Connectors: Five-Way Binding Posts

Power Consumption: 600 watts maximum/&lt;3 watts standby

Trigger Input: 6-35 V DC 4mA

Weight: 18 pounds

Dimensions (H/W/D):1.75&quot; x 17&quot; with feet x 11.5&quot;</font>

 

[3db]

<font color='#000000'>&quot;Magazines such as Sound&amp;Vision already have and proven that $800 receivers such as the Denon AVR-2803 have about 10dB better SNR via the analog inputs, while also exhibiting better linearity and SNR for PCM, then the likes of many $3500 and up processors. &nbsp;Check the reviews done by David Ranada. We just got some nice test gear from Sencore so we are hoping we can do some of this ourselves going forward.&quot;

Why have all the reviews that I have read on pre/pros in the 3500-4000 range describe the sound as opened, detailed, able to distinguish the instruments within the sound field, neitral, etc &nbsp;even thow the SNR are slightly higher than those of flagship receivers? &nbsp; &nbsp;I really believe that numbers do not tell the whole story and people really get hung up on them.</font>

 

[_audiouser_]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

3db : <font color='#000000'>&quot;We just got some nice test gear from Sencore so we are hoping we can do some of this ourselves going forward.&quot;

Why have all the reviews that I have read on pre/pros in the 3500-4000 range describe the sound as opened, detailed, able to distinguish the instruments within the sound field, neitral, etc  even thow the SNR are slightly higher than those of flagship receivers?    I really believe that numbers do not tell the whole story and people really get hung up on them.</font>

<font color='#000000'>I too am interested in how Gene got that number, cause I'd like to know how the math/formula works.

However, &nbsp;if you read the Sunfire review on this site (a pre pro right in your price range), you'll find not everyone blindly loves pre/pros. &nbsp;

IMHO we don't have enough hardcore mesurments. &nbsp;People who delude themselves into thinking their ear is more sensitve than calibrated testing equipment are just that, deluded.

Really, lots of loudspeaker designers have argued this over, and over, and over, in the end the mic wins. &nbsp;Another prime example, why would anyone need a SPL meter to setup their system?

Again IMHO not getting hung up on numbers leads to those &quot;chocolately&quot; cables we all love so much.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>This SPL/wattage war reminds me of people buying Ferrari and Porsche only to lug them in traffic and accumulate carbon in their engines.

The power factor today is more of an advertising gimmick than a real factor.IMHO others may differ.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>All;

Unless otherwise specified, when an amplifier company lists SNR it is a full power rating.  This is somewhat misleading since the listener rarely achieves such high output levels while preserving their hearing and their speakers.

To translate a rating down to 1 watt is simple.  Lets take the following example:

Amp rating:  200wpc 8ohms,  SNR = 112dBA (A-weighing)

We convert 200watts/8ohms to voltage by: P = V^2/R
thus:  V = sqrt(V*R) = sqrt(200*8) = 40 Volts
If we wish to translate down to 1watt, you need to compare this ratio to 2.83V (1 watt into  ohms).

Correction Factor = 20*log(40/28.3)
Thus:  SNR @1Watt = SNR(Full Power) - Correction Factor
SNR@1watt = 112dB - 23dB = 89dB!
This is a pretty good #, not sure why the link I read on one of the Outlaw amps speced only 100dBA at full power. Perhaps it was another model.

3dB;
To answer your question, Yes SNR is not everything, but it is a very good indication of how good a system will be at resolving low level details.

I believe the fundemental point of this thread is to help people understand that the old misconception that &quot;Separates are always better than Receivers&quot; just isn't true any longer.  I have personally discovered that the Denon AVR-5803 betters pretty much most separates solution at its price point with respect to flexibility, processing power and fidelity.  If I were assembling a new home theater system it would certainly be on my list as an option to consider.  Does it have a better amp section than separates?  That depends on a lot of factors.  Certainly there are 7CH amps out there for around $2K that may offer more power, but not all of them will do so with the same level of finesses.  There are always compromises to consider, especially when dealing with a budget.

Audiouser;

I love your cable analogy with chocolate. &nbsp;I use that one often myself &nbsp;

I agree with you 100% thus why we started measuring cables to verify, or more commonly debunk manufacturers claims.</font>