Our senses: Is our hearing like our taste?

[Tomorrow]

No control for music preference by people just how they would rate the speaker's performance. I doubt their preference mad a difference in their score sheet but then, I didn't dissect any of the results to specifics.
I

Doubting differences or making claims that aren't tested or controlled for isn't the scientific way, now, is it?

And as I recall, Mtry, you still owe me an explanation for the vast popularity of those ol' accurate and neutrally designed Mirage speakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's interesting, reading other threads, about talk of what speaker, what wire, etc?
When was the last time any of us had our hearing checked?
What if we're spending all this money, on great speakers, and our hearing isn't 100%?

As far as taste; I was watching one of the science shows, they said, some people have more taste buds, than average. They were called super tasters.
I recall as a child hating the taste of lime; I thought it tasted soapy.
Now, I have a lime in my gin and tonic all the time.
It seems our hearing gets worse over time, and our tastes get better.
What do you guys think?

Rick

Hearing does degrade with age for sure. That too has been tested by interested scientists
As to taste, that too can change over time. Some people loose taste for salt, etc, so they over compensate when cooking and then the guests eat very salty food
Vagaries of life Cost of growing old

 

[krabapple]

Loudspeaker preference being based on genre and loudspeaker preference being based on subjectivity are long lasting myths that have been disproved by credible perceptual research. A quality speaker is a quality speaker irregardless of genre.

The work you cite actually contradicts part of this claim. Loudspeaker preference, as typically arrived at (that is, from SIGHTED comparison) is actually very much based on 'genre' and 'subjectivity'. That's why when listeners in Olive's studies were allowed to rate speakers 'sighted', the rankings were all over the place compared to the measured output. But when they were forced to rank them ONLY by the sound, the ranking became notably more uniform and highly-rated loudspeakers tended to have similar measured output...especially when listeners were trained to hear distortion.

 

[fmw]

From what I'm gathering, the general consensus is that preference pays the major role. But why does fmw literally hate celery while I can chomp on it all day long. Is my sense of taste better in some way?

Bias. There may be things that you don't like that I do. Preference. People are all different from one another.

I still just find that odd. One response to my wine analogy said that your taste becomes better with experience, but we could be talking about two different things. One individual in my club cannot stand any red. He finds just about every red to be harsh and foul tasting. However, he's probably one of the best white wine experts I've ever seen who can tpically nail vintage and region about 75% of the time in a blind tasting. So why do red not taste good to him?

I don't think our ability to taste changes but our preferences and biases become stronger over time. We become set in our ways. I'm not a big fan of most red wines and I don't young ones at all. The reason is that they have a lot of tannins and, like your friend, I don't care that much for tannins in my wine. It is just a matter of preference. Why does it seem mysterious?

Do we hear or taste the same things the same and process it differently, or do physically hear and taste things diferently and process it the same. Maybe that the bottom line question I'm getting at. Also, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the person I quoted in that I'm assuming he really can distinguish the quality of a speaker to that degree that easily. Whether or not that's the case isn't really important for my purposes of the post. It more of general desire to understand things.

Science will tell you that our senses work pretty much the same way. What varies significantly is how our brain processes the input from the senses and causes us to react to the stimuli. The stimuli are the same. The biases, preferences and experiences in the brain are very different from person to person.

The red wine has a certain level of tannin. It doesn't change. What changes is various peoples' reaction to it. Same with hearing. A speaker system produces sound waves that are the same for everyone. However, everyone doesn't react the same way to them. Pretty simple. Human nature.

 

[fmw]

Hearing does degrade with age for sure. D

And so has mine. I don't hear anything over 14 or 15khz any longer. However, some of the subjectivist magazine reviewers that are considered to have "golden ears" are older than I am. Go figure.

 

[itschris]

Beyond pure specs, do you think subjectively there is an ultimatel consensus on what speakers sound good? Everything we've been talking about here seems to indicate that preference is the driving factor. All things being completely equal, if someone says these speakers sound terrible with music, while another says they sound wonderful, how are we to determine who is correct?

I dont know that just because once person dislikes a speaker that others do, makes that person more trained or experienced, or visa versa.

It starts to make me wonder about any subjective review and really question the validity of any defacto comments beyond what can be physically measured.

I honestly think we all just hear things very differently... or maybe the same... but just perceive that sound very differently. I sit outside on our lanai and the sound of the waterfall on our pool will make me fall asleep while it's kind of annoying to my wife after an extended period of time. We're hearing the exact same thing in the exact same way and environment, yet we have differing ideas of what sounds pleasing.

I just don't know that I buy into strongly worded assertion any longer because clearly it not a matter if a speaker is really good or not as much as it is if the person listening to likes that type of sound or not.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Definitively personal preference and bias.

But I think the biggest reason is the setup itself: speaker placement, room acoustics, source, and processor (DSP, Tones, EQ, etc.).

I'm not biased at all really. I may own DefTech because I personally love the way they sound to me in my room - clear, smooth, and powerful.

But if there are speakers out there that I think sound even better that what I'm hearing, even if they cost $20,000/pr, I would be willing to save up for them. It might not be this year, next year, or the year after that. But there is no reason I can't buy them in 5 years. I'm not biased at all. I welcome any speaker that sounds great. I enjoy this hobby.

But some people will never even look at certain speakers, like DefTechs, due to a variety of personal reasons. Maybe they have listened to DefTechs in a bad setup or acoustic room. Whatever reason. The first impression is all they need to hate certain speakers for life. Why second chances? Most showrooms have bad setup anyway. Most people will only truly know how their own speakers sound in their room or how speakers sound in a friend's room. Showrooms are usually not great for sound reproduction in my book.

I recently listened to the B&W 800D and Paradigm Studio 100, and I was very disappointed in both cases. But if I get a chance to listen to them again, and again, and again in different places, I would every time. I keep on thinking perhaps there will be a room out there that will reveal to me the speakers' true sound.

Yes, some of us prefer more bass and some prefer less bass. Some prefer Rock music, some prefer Country music, and some prefer Classical. But none of us prefer harsh, muddy, bloated, compressed, or fatiguing sound.

So while bias and personal preference play a huge role, I think the most critical factor is the environment itself - speaker placement, room acoustics, source, and processors.

 

[rnatalli]

From a physiological standpoint, taste and hearing work quite differently. Taste depends on smell and smell is unique in that this sense goes straight to the olfactory area of the brain whereas other senses are sent to a switching station of sorts before proceeding to areas of the cortex. This is why a smell can provoke a serious physiological reaction or trigger memories easily. There's probably some evolutionary advantage to having it set up this way.

 

[fmw]

Beyond pure specs, do you think subjectively there is an ultimatel consensus on what speakers sound good? Everything we've been talking about here seems to indicate that preference is the driving factor. All things being completely equal, if someone says these speakers sound terrible with music, while another says they sound wonderful, how are we to determine who is correct?

I dont know that just because once person dislikes a speaker that others do, makes that person more trained or experienced, or visa versa.

It starts to make me wonder about any subjective review and really question the validity of any defacto comments beyond what can be physically measured.

I honestly think we all just hear things very differently... or maybe the same... but just perceive that sound very differently. I sit outside on our lanai and the sound of the waterfall on our pool will make me fall asleep while it's kind of annoying to my wife after an extended period of time. We're hearing the exact same thing in the exact same way and environment, yet we have differing ideas of what sounds pleasing.

I just don't know that I buy into strongly worded assertion any longer because clearly it not a matter if a speaker is really good or not as much as it is if the person listening to likes that type of sound or not.

Making a purchase decision on someone else's subjective listening decision is no different than rolling dice. There is no right or wrong. There are only preferences. The high end audio magazines write as though they have the right answers, but they don't have them either.

All speakers interact with room acoustics. So a speaker system by itself doesn't mean much of anything. A speaker system installed in your listening room does have meaning and your reaction to it is what matters, not someone else's.

I haven't bothered to listen to anything in an audio showroom in 10 years. To me it is not very useful because it isn't in my listening room. It is only slightly better than reading a magazine review which includes neither my room nor my preferences. All my purchases have been motivated by specifications and personal experience of what designs work for me.

I guess it isn't hard to figure out why I don't give advice to people on how things sound unless it relates to a bias controlled listening test I've done.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Speaker Placement & Room Acoustics

Let me give an example.

When I first go my BP7000SC, I placed them 6" from the front wall and faced the active 14" subwoofers toward the side walls.

I thought, "My gosh! I just bought these huge rather expensive speakers and they sound all muddy, bloated, unfocused, and just plain bad! What they heck were those reviewers from Home Theater Mag, Sound & Vision, and Audio-Video Revolution were thinking? What were they smoking or drinking?"

Then I faced the active subwoofers towards each other and away from the side walls, plus I pulled the speakers 24" away from the front walls.

The difference was like Night and Day. It was like turning on a Magic Switch.
The sound was extremely clear, smooth, focused, and the bass was clean, deep, and powerful. I thought, "Ah, that's what those reviewers were talking about!"

I bought four acoustic panels/bass traps (4" x 24" x 48") and placed them in the four corners. I also tried placing them on the sides. I could not hear a difference at all.

A) Is it because room treatments don't work?
B) Or is it because my particular room already has good acoustics?
C) Maybe I need 8 or 12 panels instead of 4?

I would say B & C are correct. But since I already love the sound, I'm not willing to buy any more panels.

If I base my opinions solely on showroom auditions thus far, I would have to say that every single speaker I've heard (including DefTechs, B&W 800D, Paradigm Studio 100, Mirage, Klipsch) sound TERRIBLE. In fact, my NHT SuperZero + SW2P subwoofer in my room sounded a lot better than anyone of them in the Showrooms!

When I had my Harman Kardon AVR247, I tried the Automatic Room EQ several times at different times. And every single time, the Room EQ would make the sound TERRIBLE. It sounded compressed, bloated, muddy - very unclear sound. Then I turned off the Room EQ, and the sound was great again.

We all prefer CLEAR, SMOOTH, NON-FATIGUING sound with good CLEAN BASS.

Some prefer a little less bass, and some prefer a lot more bass, but still clean bass, not some muddy bass we hear from those cars on the streets.

 

[itschris]

But I think the biggest reason is the setup itself: speaker placement, room acoustics, source, and processor (DSP, Tones, EQ, etc.).
.

True, but i'm talking beyond that. I'm talking that if the setup is perfect, the equipment is perfect, everything... all things being completely equal... even if two people shared the same favorite song... they can have completely different opinions of the performance.

That tells me, that we siimply hear or interpret things completely differently and that discussions... let alone arguments, over which speakers are good vs bad have little or no meaning in the real world.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

True, but i'm talking beyond that. I'm talking that if the setup is perfect, the equipment is perfect, everything... all things being completely equal... even if two people shared the same favorite song... they can have completely different opinions of the performance.

That tells me, that we siimply hear or interpret things completely differently and that discussions... let alone arguments, over which speakers are good vs bad have little or no meaning in the real world.

That could be very true!

Given perfect conditions (placement, acoustics, source, etc.), we may all pick completely different speakers, even when double-blinded.

I agree with that.

 

[Tomorrow]

True, but i'm talking beyond that. I'm talking that if the setup is perfect, the equipment is perfect, everything... all things being completely equal... even if two people shared the same favorite song... they can have completely different opinions of the performance.

That tells me, that we siimply hear or interpret things completely differently and that discussions... let alone arguments, over which speakers are good vs bad have little or no meaning in the real world.

Chris....I think you're right on the money!...with one exception. Auditory perceptual research has demonstrated that there really are generalized preferences for a couple of speaker elements, e.g. 'good' off-axis performance (who cares about this if you're listening on-axis? ), low cabinet resonance, flat frequency response. (Maybe that's what you meant by saying "beyond the specs". ??) And as has been articulated, room acoustics and source equipment/material are important elements to what and how we hear.

But within these broad generalizations we agree, it is that stuff between the ears that matters most. Why else would there be 1,000's of loudspeaker models?! Why...of course because we all have different takes on speaker presentation.

Concerning loudspeaker reviews...I like them for the joy of being educated on new adjective usage ("chocolatey mids"). You have the correct attitude about them, IMHO, but I think it's kind of fun to hear others' perspectives (so long as you keep your knowledge that YMMV). And in keeping with the sense of taste comparison, I like trying new recipes on the chance that MY palate will enjoy the taste as much as the author.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...even if two people shared the same favorite song... they can have completely different opinions of the performance.

That tells me, that we siimply hear or interpret things completely differently and that discussions... let alone arguments, over which speakers are good vs bad have little or no meaning in the real world.

I think you may be confusing an artistic difference in a performance to different people with what they really hear and would like sonically instead of artistically.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

'good' off-axis performance (who cares about this if you're listening on-axis?)...

What?

You don't care if your mom's friend's cousin's aunt-in-law is sitting to the sides of the room?

 

[mtrycrafts]

And so has mine. I don't hear anything over 14 or 15khz any longer. However, some of the subjectivist magazine reviewers that are considered to have "golden ears" are older than I am. Go figure.

Oh, I have figured them They are BS artists

 

[mtrycrafts]

...Auditory perceptual research has demonstrated that there really are generalized preferences for a couple of speaker elements, e.g. 'good' off-axis performance (who cares about this if you're listening on-axis? ),

We should After all, that characteristics reflects on spacial and sound-staging effects by how much is reflected after the direct sound

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...low cabinet resonance, flat frequency response...

Do we "associate" more the sound coming out of the speakers to frequency response (on/off axis) or to cabinet resonance?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Quite often, those who give negative reviews are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual sound. These reasons include the need to feel that their own speakers are superior, snobbery against brands viewed as "popular" or "mass market", or just being a jerk. I expect that a large percentage of those who put down Def Tech have never even heard them (or at least not heard them set up properly.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Quite often, those who give negative reviews are doing so for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual sound. These reasons include the need to feel that their own speakers are superior, snobbery against brands viewed as "popular" or "mass market", or just being a jerk. I expect that a large percentage of those who put down Def Tech have never even heard them (or at least not heard them set up properly.)

They just don't have GOOD hearing senses!

And that's all have to say about that.